Author Topic: Restoration Difficulty Level  (Read 900310 times)

andyburns

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • New Zealand, Auckland, Drury
  • Posts: 1212
Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #600 on: March 02, 2014, 08:15:36 »
Had a lazy day today.  To keep up my one part per day target I mounted up my brand new indicator stalk.  I had spent heaps of time repairing my old one.  Managed to fix the indent problem but the crumbling baker-lite got the better or me and no amount of high strength epoxy glue seemed to hold it together.  I contemplated trying to rob one off a 108 but in the end bit the bullet and paid a seemingly ridiculous price for a brand spanking new one.  It is nice to know its back to factory new and good for another 50 years.

Not much problem installing it.  Just had to feed a draw cable through the steering shroud and decompose the plug to just wires to get it through.  For a while I have been wondering which female plug the indicator went into under the dash.  Two side by side with identical configurations.   The new indicator had a red tag on the cable which my old one didn't.  This corresponded to the same on the loom under the dash.  If I hadn't purchased the new indicator I probably would have plugged things in around the wrong way and fried my wiring so am quite happy to have that sorted.

Also finished up the repairs on the glove compartment door and then sanded it back with 400 dry and then 1000 wet ready for final top coats. 

Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

KevinC

  • Guest
Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #601 on: March 03, 2014, 14:21:03 »
Andy, I haven't read this entire post... just bits and pieces. What a job you are doing and the photos are awesome. Perhaps you've covered this but are you going to change the black steering wheel pad to ivory?


andyburns

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • New Zealand, Auckland, Drury
  • Posts: 1212
Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #602 on: March 03, 2014, 21:06:13 »
Thanks Kevin,  I want to leave a couple of small personalisations on the car and really want to a point of difference with the steering wheel button.  I know its suppose to match the steering wheel but I am going to paint the hardtop and hub caps 050 black which will tie in with the button.  I have thought about it on numerous occassions and think it will look ok.  I also have an ivory gear shift ball which was given to me as a present by a good friend over a year ago.  Want to pay him the respect and incorporate it into the 'scheme'.  Should still look good without being garish!  What do you all think?
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

KevinC

  • Guest
Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #603 on: March 03, 2014, 22:15:37 »
I'm an "all in" ivory guy but that's just me. The black pad/button with the black HT and horn button should look cool .

BTW, my original horn pad button was cracked so I bought a black one on eBay. I stripped the black paint off the back-side and painted it ivory with a $2.00 can of Krylon.

andyburns

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • New Zealand, Auckland, Drury
  • Posts: 1212
Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #604 on: March 03, 2014, 22:39:58 »
Kevin,  your car looks lovely.  I really like your scheme as well. I totally restored the button from scratch as well.  It was originally a ivory pad with ivory center.  Converted everything to as you see it now. 
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

andyburns

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • New Zealand, Auckland, Drury
  • Posts: 1212
Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #605 on: March 04, 2014, 16:42:01 »
Sometime the F word doesn't even cover it!

I managed to find some finny handles a few days ago which were good enough to use for the rebuild on my door handle.  I had a first quick go at re-cutting the pins to suit my key and to do a quick reassemble to ensure it was all going to work.  Some of the parts are slightly different from the 113 so interchanging parts causes quite a few little headaches.

Anyway I managed to get it all back together again and it all operated nicely other than when I went to try my second key it was catching a little.  I deliberated for a day or so and then my anal retentive nature kicked in and I just couldn't bear only having one key working perfectly.

Stripped it all down again and went to work on getting both keys working perfectly with the barrel.  Used my dremel with a 80 grit sand paper paddle to slowly work the pins.  All good a this point.

The only difficult part about putting these little suckers back together is the retaining clip that hold the main plunger spring in place.  To put it mildly its a bit of a prick.  I now know through blind experience how to do this without damaging things (will document this soon) but even then you have to be very careful not to damage things. 

Guess what.  Back to drawing board... mark 3.
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

andyburns

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • New Zealand, Auckland, Drury
  • Posts: 1212
Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #606 on: March 05, 2014, 15:56:51 »
Here are some pictures showing the differences between the finny handle components and the early 113. 

Some parts are readily interchangeable.  The chrome handle and the arm that screw into the barrel are examples.

Some parts are not.  The barrel and barrel holder are matched and must stay together.

The finny barrel also has this funky key way with a moon shaped key locking the barrel into the barrel holder.  See photo.  This caught me out the first time as when you disassemble it cant be seen through all the grime.  I ended up trying to knock the barrel out of the hold with considerable force and completely stuffed it.  To get it out is a bit of a mission.  One of the three came out cleanly but the other two had rusted in place and needed to be jimmied out with a screw driver which did a little damage to the housing.  It still fitted back in ok.

Also I have thrown in a photo showing how to get that dreaded retaining clip back on as easily as possible.

 
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

andyburns

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • New Zealand, Auckland, Drury
  • Posts: 1212
Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #607 on: March 05, 2014, 16:17:49 »
Some more differences that you should also look out for are the rubber gaskets that sit under the handle.  I got everything mixed up and tried to fit up some of the finny ones that came with the spare handles.  Not a good idea.  Then discovered that the 113 rubber is different from left to right.  Dont mix this up either or you will be swearing.

After I fitted up the handles I have discovered that one of them has a very loose barrel with a lot of slop in it.  When you rotate it to lock or unlock it the shaft is moving laterally to much and jamming the mechanism.  So probably will have to haul it out again and sort this out somehow.  Hoping it wont be too painful.

Big thanks to Kevin from Startech enterprises http://www.4mercs.co.nz/ for his help with the handles.  Kev has a massive collection of 60's and 70's parts and is hugely knowledgable about all things Mercedes.
 

« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 17:57:02 by andyburns »
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

andyburns

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • New Zealand, Auckland, Drury
  • Posts: 1212
Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #608 on: March 06, 2014, 18:37:04 »
Was wondering if there is someone out there with a car with leather interior who would be prepared to help me out with a few photos.   Converting my car from mbtex to leather has caused a few headaches with the finishing of the leather.  I believe that the fit up of leather is probably considerably different to vinyl which can be stretched and manipulated much more readily.  I really want to get on with my dash components and believe that I can get a reasonable result, but am worried that the way I want to do it might not be the way a professional will approach.  Mainly around how the edges are turned up around tight corners.  Need a few photos of the main dash pad, glove compartment area and the soft top hatch.

Any help appreciated. 
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

Jonny B

  • Pagoda SL Board
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, San Marcos
  • Posts: 4131
Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #609 on: March 07, 2014, 16:52:05 »
Andy, I have a LHD 280 SL with the original leather interior and dash fitments. Here are some snaps. If you want anything further, or more detail just let me know.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 17:07:54 by Jonny B »
Jonny B
1967 250 SL Auto, DB 568
1970 280 SL Auto, DB 904
1966 Morris Mini Minor

Jonny B

  • Pagoda SL Board
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, San Marcos
  • Posts: 4131
Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #610 on: March 07, 2014, 17:08:31 »
Two more
Jonny B
1967 250 SL Auto, DB 568
1970 280 SL Auto, DB 904
1966 Morris Mini Minor

andyburns

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • New Zealand, Auckland, Drury
  • Posts: 1212
Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #611 on: March 07, 2014, 19:11:19 »
Jonny, those are brilliant thank you so much.  Wow,  I really didn't expect to find someone with original leather.  Sort of a holy grail in that respect.  I would imagine that your car is very very rare in this respect.  Given the number of leather conversions, or replacements I think the information that can be gathered from you car could prove invaluable to anyone contemplating this job. 

I know from my car now that at some point an upholsterer has removed original material and did not pay attention to  how it was put on by the factory resulting in the confusion I am now having to endure.

If you ever have your interior out you can glean so much more information from the back of these panels as to how the material was applied.  If this is ever the case I suggest you take as many photos as you can and post them in here for future generations.  As time goes by you leather in particular will become all the more unique.  Just look at the sale of the black 300sl at Scottsdale auction this year.  I think it reflects exactly what I elude to

I would really appreciate a couple more if you have the time.  The upholstered bolster on the front of the glove compartment is of particular interest.  The photo you posted showed the next panel along which I have already completed.  It has one 'slot' in the side of it which has leather tucked into it. 

The last guy who did mine did not make use of it and simply pulled the covering right over the top of the panel.  I used it but until now didn't know if it was the right thing to do.  I have seen other posts in here where people have asked the same question but until now I havn't found any answers. 

It might seem like a pedantic detail to you guys but wait till you have put a couple of g's on the table for materials.  Its a good incentive to get it right!  I certainly don't want to be looking at it in another 12 months wanting to redo it again.

I had another shocker yesterday.  Took the entire day of work to get some traction on my becker and also tackle the curved upper dash pads again.  I decided that I would try and outsource the repair of the very simple push pull amp for the becker.   Its one job I probably should be doing myself considering my background.  But after a five day marathon with the locks I decided it would be prudent to get this done by someone who deals with this type of equipment on a daily basis.  So I set about trying to find someone who was able and competent.

After a good couple of hours searching the internet I hit a guy who proclaimed to be a 35 year old radio tech.  And all the better he lived only a 20 minute drive from my house.  Fantastic... so I thought.  I email him with photos of the unit interior and the schematic circuit diagram I got from in here.  The guy responded back letting me know it was a simple amp and he could fix it for no more than 60nzd.  Over the moon at this point.  I couldn't have done it for any less than 5-10 hours of my time I guess.

After a drive through rush hour traffic I was still really optimistic that another 'pagoda problem' was going to get solved with minimal money and effort.  This feeling has rapidly become a rarity for me since starting this project.

It took all of about 2 minutes for me to scope the guy had wasted my time.  He struggled to even get the two screws securing the top lid off with his greasy oversized screwdriver.  A good electronics tech would use the right tool. 

I then watched in horror as he 'accidentally' snapped in half the baker light voltage key as is fossicked around int he internals at which point he proclaimed 'this unit is a bit delicate for my liking.  Dont think I want attempt the repair'

I was kind of left speechless but quickly gathered my thoughts and decided it was for the best.  In the mean time he had wrenched the baker lite key out and without my consent was gluing it back together with what looked like super glue.  He then produced a 15 dollar multimeter to test if the tracks were broken.  Again I would have expected a competent tech to at least have a decent fluke meter or the like.

Tail between legs I got in the car and drove another 20 minutes back home.

Decided on my arrival to tackle the small dash tip pieces.  This time I would thin the leather down to almost paper like proportions to get it to stretch.  I started the job with the up-most confidence the result would be positive.

I wont bother you with all the details but long story short after three hours of effort I now have two pieces of abused leather and a naked aluminum panel sitting on my desk.

I tried every tactic know to man, heat, steam, slow pressure.  I even let the dog chew on it for a good 20 minutes to see if tenderisation by mouth would get me a result.   Nada.  I officially suck at leather work specifically where forming around tight complex corners are concerned.

Sleep didn't come easily to me after a day like this.  I sat up till 3am this morning stewing about the money lost and the time wasted.  I got back on the internet looking for solutions.  Spent a good hour in here and read just about every post with the word 'leather' in it.  Nothing I hadn't already tried sprang out.

Went further a field and started watching youtube videos on leather forming.  My very last port of call today is going to be soaking the leather in near boiling water and forming it.  Will try on some off cuts first to determine how pliable it makes the leather.  Also the reading I have done suggests that shrinkage will occur when this method is used so I will have to stretch the leather further to compensate.  It wont be able to be glued until its dried so this end to end method, if it works, will be a labor of love.



Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

Jonny B

  • Pagoda SL Board
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, San Marcos
  • Posts: 4131
Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #612 on: March 08, 2014, 04:41:43 »
Andy,

Here are a few more. Let me know if there are some other angles you would like to see. Don't know if I would call this a holy grail or not, but I am now the third steward of the car. For those that have been to PUB in the past, the car was there each time. Bob decided to sell in 2011, after almost 40 years of ownership! I stepped to the plate, and it now resides in Southern California.
Jonny B
1967 250 SL Auto, DB 568
1970 280 SL Auto, DB 904
1966 Morris Mini Minor

andyburns

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • New Zealand, Auckland, Drury
  • Posts: 1212
Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #613 on: March 08, 2014, 05:42:22 »
Thanks Jonny,

Really appreciate the extra pics.   Gleaming heaps of info off them.  Have you got any pics of the outside of the car on the forum anywhere? They have confirmed my suspicions that the channels are used with leather but not mbtex. 

The one area I am really interested in is just out of sight.  Can you take a look at the picture below and let me know if there is a second fold on the side of the bolster.  Picture shows exactly where I am referring to.

Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

star63

  • Full Member
  • Senior
  • ***
  • Finland, Etela-Suomen Laani, Vantaa
  • Posts: 243
Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #614 on: March 08, 2014, 08:53:43 »
They have confirmed my suspicions that the channels are used with leather but not mbtex. 

Those channels were used on mine with mbtex.

- Petri
Petri
'67 250 SL (early)
'66 230 SL (long project)
Finland

Greg

  • Guest
Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #615 on: March 08, 2014, 15:00:53 »
Since you're at it...
Can I ask if there is supposed to be a layer of thin foam under the soft top hatch leather?

Thanks!!

Jonny B

  • Pagoda SL Board
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, San Marcos
  • Posts: 4131
Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #616 on: March 08, 2014, 16:35:23 »
Andy,

I just went to look and there is a second fold in that tucked away spot. If you would like some more detailed photos, send a PM with an email and I can take a couple of hi res shots.

I also looked at the soft top leather, and it does not feel like there is anything underneath the material.

Picture of 280 SL with this post
Jonny B
1967 250 SL Auto, DB 568
1970 280 SL Auto, DB 904
1966 Morris Mini Minor

andyburns

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • New Zealand, Auckland, Drury
  • Posts: 1212
Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #617 on: March 08, 2014, 18:31:01 »
Jonny,  it looks superb.  I envy you having a runner.  I have really longed to be out driving this summer.  We have had some fantastic blue sky days where I have looked at the car up on block in the garage and got quite angry the restoration has taken me so long.

An extra picture of that second fold would be awesome.  Also a couple more of the folding of the leather on the rally hard concave curve under the dash on the extreme left and right near the A pillars would be great as well.

I am interested in your comment about the hatch leather having no foam under it.  I am wondering if it is because it has disintegrated.  It is one piece that certainly would get a lot of heat.  I am a bit worried about converting my interior to black which is just going to accentuate premature deterioration.   I am just about to do my hatch and all the research I have done indicates it should have a 6mm piece of foam from edge to edge.  Mine certainly had some very deteriorated foam under it when I pulled it up.  I almost certain it was original as well given quite a few tell tale signs I observed during it removal.

I am honestly quite stunned that your leather seems to be in such good shape still.  The only other examples around the same ago of original leather I have ever seen have always been in sedans or coupes where there is a bit of shade.  UV would be the biggest enemy of leather for sure and the nature of the pagoda, and any other convertible to that extent, means that if your intact set is quite the rarity.

I would love to see some general photos of the entire interior if you have time.  Would be great to gauge how the entire set looks, especially things like the seats. 
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

andyburns

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • New Zealand, Auckland, Drury
  • Posts: 1212
Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #618 on: March 08, 2014, 18:42:49 »
Petri,  are you sure you mbtex was original.  I was looking at a confirmed original set a few weeks ago in the flesh and it seemed that the mbtex was injection moulded together around all three edges of the end piece.  The whole end was covered perfectly with no wrinkles or folds.  I kick myself now that I didn't take a photo.  Is there any chance I could persuade you to put a photo up here to show what you have as well. 
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

andyburns

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • New Zealand, Auckland, Drury
  • Posts: 1212
Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #619 on: March 09, 2014, 08:19:42 »
Glove compartment got some 'lovin' today.  Cleaned all the old glue off and inspected.  I cant make up my mind if I should strip it right back to bare metal, bead blast and give it the epoxy treatment?  A few spider rust spider veins starting to creep into the top of it but nothing too bad.  Will sleep on that one.

In the mean time I got into the leather work for the inside of the glove box.  Decomposed my old skin to see exactly how the stitching was done.  Also took heaps of measurements and cut out the new pieces of leather to suit.  Pulled the old sewing machine out of the closet again.  Its seen more sunshine in the past two weeks than it has in the past 20 years! 

It really did struggle with the first seam.  So much so that I unpicked it and started again.  This time I used the belt sander to reduce the thickness of the edges.  This made the difference and the next attempt was like chalk and cheese.  Much better more consistent lines.  Once you start sewing if you have to stop for any reason then the chance of it going pear shape, with bulges and crooked lines, increases.

Not rocket science though and even a good old kiwi 'homer' has come up trumps if I dont say so myself.  Quite chuffed!  Certainly saved me a bit more money.

Tomorrow I will glue it all up.  I think I can straighten up the majority of the slightly wonky edges when its being glued down by stretching the leather.  Will post some close ups when its finished.

Now just have to crack that dash!
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

star63

  • Full Member
  • Senior
  • ***
  • Finland, Etela-Suomen Laani, Vantaa
  • Posts: 243
Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #620 on: March 09, 2014, 08:53:43 »



I tried to do the folds as they were. I believe that the vinyl I replaced was still original because it had matching numbers hand written on the back side.
Petri
'67 250 SL (early)
'66 230 SL (long project)
Finland

andyburns

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • New Zealand, Auckland, Drury
  • Posts: 1212
Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #621 on: March 09, 2014, 08:58:25 »
Hey Petri,

That one really helps as well.  I can see the very edge of the rear fold as well.  Has given me the confidence I need to go ahead with mine now.  Will probably tackle it in a couple of days when the glove compartment is finished.  Thanks for your photos guys really appreciate it.  They have all been a big help to me. 
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

Jonny B

  • Pagoda SL Board
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, San Marcos
  • Posts: 4131
Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #622 on: March 09, 2014, 16:45:59 »
Andy, requested photos attached. Kind of difficult to get a good shot of the edge of the glove box door.

The only thing I have done to the interior is to get new pads for the seats. As you might suspect, there is some sun fading, most noticeable at the top of the door panels, and the seat bottoms. When the seats were redone, we switched the backs but could not do that for the bottoms as they are contoured and only fit one way.

I supposed that the padding could be gone, but it just does not feel like there is anything under the leather for the soft top case.
Jonny B
1967 250 SL Auto, DB 568
1970 280 SL Auto, DB 904
1966 Morris Mini Minor

andyburns

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • New Zealand, Auckland, Drury
  • Posts: 1212
Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #623 on: March 09, 2014, 18:07:30 »
Thanks Jonny,  Can clearly see the folds in your glove compartment bolster as well.  Done deal!  Love the red interior!
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

andyburns

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • New Zealand, Auckland, Drury
  • Posts: 1212
Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #624 on: March 10, 2014, 07:04:15 »
Decided not to be lazy and strip the glove compartment back to bare steel and repaint.  As always when I stripped the factory paint off, and there wasn't much of it at all, the rust was much worse than could be seen on the surface.  Never ceases to surprise me how far and to what extend rust tracks under paint. 

The bulk of the rust was along the top surface of the box.  I guess there has been leaks that have dripped down or simply condensation from water evaporating off the floor pans.  The lower surface was perfect.  Inside the compartment on the horizontal shelf lots of surface rust was present.  Am guessing but this is probably previous owners putting wet rags in here or maybe leaking liquid containers?  In any event I am glad to be dealing with it in a half decent manner.

I have to wait until tomorrow to get some time in the bead blaster but have been buying up all the paint supplies I need.  Amazing how many rubber glove, mixing pots, stirring rod and rags I have been through.  They just seem to vanish.

Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car