Author Topic: Are all 280 sl's the Pagoda? If not how can you verify what you have?  (Read 4004 times)

ghebert4189

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Are all 280 sl's the Pagoda model or is this a special version of the vehicle?
« Last Edit: June 19, 2020, 19:27:00 by ghebert4189 »

JamesL

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Re: Are all 280 sl's the Pagoda?
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2020, 18:47:05 »
If it’s pre-1971, yes a Pagoda
Then the r107 “panzerwagen” (think Bobby Ewing) had a 280SL
Then the r129 also had a 280SL

So not all 280SLs are pagodas. All 250SLs are, but not all 230SLs ( engine size also appeared as 107s and 129s)
James L
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ghebert4189

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Re: Are all 280 sl's the Pagoda?
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2020, 18:58:16 »
I have a 1971 280 SL.
How can I verify if mine is a Pagoda?

And thank you for the reply!

WRe

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Hi,
in 1971 (until March) a 280SL was a Pagoda. The first R107 280SL started in 1974, in 1971 only 350SL and 450SL were build.
...WRe

mdsalemi

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Re: Are all 280 sl's the Pagoda?
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2020, 21:54:33 »
I have a 1971 280 SL.
How can I verify if mine is a Pagoda?

And thank you for the reply!

Just look at your VIN tag, maybe your title or registration? If the chassis number begins with 113, it's a Pagoda.
There were European R107s that were 280SL. My friend has one. It's not a Pagoda.
Look at the photos. Just Google them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_R107_and_C107  Not a Pagoda.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_W113  Pagoda.
Michael Salemi
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Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
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Norm

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Here is a little more information edited from the tech manual:

113 describes the platform, in this case the "Pagoda"-SL produced from 1963 to 1971.
The vehicle is commonly identified as "W113", where W means "Wagen", i.e. car. Recently, Daimler has started to also identify it as "R113", where R means "Roadster", but this designation is not historically correct (it is only correct for the subsequent SL-models, starting with the R107).
Also, when talking to a mechanic about the "113", it should always be specified as a "W113", because there is another 113, the "M113", a later 5.0-Liter 3-valve-per-cylinder V8 engine. When reading a model designation),
a 113.0xx is always the Pagoda, a 113.9xx is always an engine - but not a Pagoda engine!

The next three digits identifying the model, where
                                  042 is the 230SL  (113.042.....)
                                  043 is the 250SL  (113.043.....)
                                  044 is the 280SL  (113.044.....)


By the way, "Pagoda" is a nickname adopted for the W113 cars by the automotive press after introduction in 1963.

Norm
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MikeSimon

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….and it was nicknamed "Pagoda" for the shape of the hardtop, which resembled the roof of an oriental "pagoda" temple. The designers shaped the roof this way in order to allow higher sides at the top of the doors to ease exit and entry. So, the top assumes somewhat of a concave shape.
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Cees Klumper

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... and around 2000 the term 'Pagoda' was not really popular in the United States. Until it was slowly introduced here, and at one point Doug Kim suggested maybe it was time for the US to adopt the term. Now we don't know any better ... (just like I believe it was Doug Pease who coined the 'BBB' abbreviation and that stuck, around 2002)
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
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1990 Ford Bronco II

66andBlue

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As Hans in Sweden revealed some time ago the Pagoda moniker was already in use before the introduction of the 230SL by some in Sindelfingen prompting the Daimler board in March 1963 to officially decide that the name was not to be used.
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=17959.msg125222#msg125222
Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
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66andBlue

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….and it was nicknamed "Pagoda" for the shape of the hardtop, which resembled the roof of an oriental "pagoda" temple. The designers shaped the roof this way in order to allow higher sides at the top of the doors to ease exit and entry. So, the top assumes somewhat of a concave shape.
Mike,
While the roof designed and patented by Bela Barenyi  allows for easier exit and entry the main reason for the design was the added safety feature during a rollover:
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=9948.msg65661#msg65661

If you don't have the book get it from your library, I bet you'll enjoy reading it.
https://www.amazon.com/Bela-Barenyi-Father-Passive-Safety/dp/B0041FCQAC/

Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
1966 230SL automatic 334G light blue (sold)
1968 280SL automatic (now 904G midnight blue)

MikeSimon

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...Alas, when the hardtop was not mounted, you did not want to get into a rollover.....
When I graduated from University and bought my Alfa Romeo Spider, I received a lot of criticism from my friends for buying a car I could get killed iin during a "rollover". My response always was: "I do not want to roll over". I owned several "soft-top" cars in my life and yet have to roll one over.
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Shvegel

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I have seen a couple rollover cars.  One was nearly untouched except the windshield was folded right down to the doors.

mdsalemi

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I know it drives some members here a bit crazy, but Paul Bracq is listed on the patent; not just Barenyi, for the "Pagoda Hard Top" patent.

US Patent #3169793.  Inventors Bela Barenyi and Paul Bracq, assigned to DBAG. Motor Vehicle with a Concave Top. Patent Granted February 16, 1965. This patent refers back to another US patent, #3112952. That reference patent is not for a Pagoda top, nor anything quite like it: it's for a "Passenger Car with Substantially Flat Top". Patent granted December 3, 1963.

Other US Patents cited include nine others, three to Barenyi, one dating to 1914. Of Barenyi's, one of them is for a top that extends the roof around the perimeter to create a "shade effect"; another is similar with different engineering specifications, and the last one additional engineering of that top. Clearly Barenyi, known as the father of passive safety, was working on a number of things related to tops, and the patents are the results.

Then there are some German patents referenced for one reason or another, perhaps some "prior art" or perhaps they are essentially the same just filed in Germany. These are  #823918, 335951, 937570. The German patent office search isn't nearly as user friendly as the USPTO (no bastion of user friendliness itself!) and if you do find what you may be looking for, it's in German--thus of little use to someone unless they understand the language. I believe there are also references to British and French patents as well.

While the nickname "Pagoda" is common reference now to just the W113 series, the R107 series itself, particularly the roadster with removable top, also has a similarly shaped "pagoda" hard top as can easily be seen in many photos. But due to that car's tank like build, it's nickname became Panzerwagen as has been pointed out elsewhere. We here, despite what anyone may think, use this Pagoda as a nickname with no harm intended. I think the Panzerwagen is somewhat of a pejorative, since it's not used in the same way...
Michael Salemi
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66andBlue

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I know it drives some members here a bit crazy, ....
Yup, especially those who cannot read German patent texts.  ;D
Quote
Then there are some German patents referenced for one reason or another, perhaps some "prior art" or perhaps they are essentially the same just filed in Germany. These are  #823918, 335951, 937570. The German patent office search isn't nearly as user friendly as the USPTO (no bastion of user friendliness itself!) and if you do find what you may be looking for, it's in German--thus of little use to someone unless they understand the language.
To recapitulate:
Barenyi received a German patent (DBP 1069008) on April 28 1960 for the design of the concave roof top. (attachment 1)

Now let's stick to US patents and see what they provide.
US patent (filed June 30, 1959) #3112952 to Barenyi deals with several "substantially flat roofs", one of which is the concave one. (attachment 2)
US patent (filed Sep. 25, 1962) #3239269 to Wilfert & Barenyi describes a  convexly and concavely curved vehicle roof.

The purpose of the Barenyi-Bracq US Patent #3169793 (filed Jan 6, 1964) is introduced as:
The present invention relates to a motor vehicle which is provided with a top which, as seen in cross section has a concave curvature along a part of its length.
Concave vehicle tops have considerable advantages over the conventional convex tops since they permit the passengers to enter the vehicle much more easily and also permit the top to be more easily loaded with baggage. However, the manner of connecting such a concave top to the windshield or the rear window involves considerable difficulties, especially if the vehicle is to be equipped with panorama windows.
It is an object of the present invention to overcome these difficulties without complicating the construction of the vehicle top in another manner and to design the top so as to permit it to be employed for mounting auxiliary appliances thereon which are desired or required for the operation and use of the vehicle.
It is already known to provide a passenger car, which is equipped with a flat rear window which at its upper side is outwardly inclined, with a top on which a load may be supported directly and only the rear part of that the car which has a concave curvature, while the front part is convex and connected in the usual manner with a panorama windshield.  …
These and other features and advantages of the present invention will become more clearly apparent from the following detailed description thereof which is to be read with reference to the accompanying drawings, in which--

The drawings (attachment 3) show cars with no resemblance to a W113!  :o

Why? Because on Sep. 13, 1963 Wilfert and Barenyi had already filed for a patent for "The ornamental design for an automobile, as shown and described". Furthermore, they make it absolutely clear that the essential features of the design reside in the parts shown in full lines. Guess what the essential feature includes, the W113's Pagoda roof!  :D
(attachment 4)
I let the reader decide who the designer(s) of the "Pagoda" and its "Hard Top" is(are).
But I am sure the gaslighting will continue.



« Last Edit: June 23, 2020, 16:56:12 by 66andBlue »
Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
1966 230SL automatic 334G light blue (sold)
1968 280SL automatic (now 904G midnight blue)

mbzse

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Great stuff, Alfred!
I add an interesting new picture here.
This is from prestigious German automobile magazine "Motor Revue" spring of 1963.

The man carving and shaping the body lines of the W113 in the clay prototype is - Project Manager Karl Wilfert himself  8)
Note his enlarged sketch in the background to be used as a guideline.

The tool resting on the bonnet (hood) of the clay prototype is a special knife for shaping the clay
« Last Edit: June 23, 2020, 08:41:29 by mbzse »
/Hans S

mbzse

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As a reminder, I attach the picture from executive meeting when the W113 Pagoda body design and shape were decided.
All the important people are present; Friedrich Geiger head of passenger car body Design in particular (standing on the right).
Karl Wilfert is wearing dark glasses, sitting at the table
/Hans S

mdsalemi

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I dare say that the first US "patent" referenced here is a design patent not a utility or invention patent; that is cheap to get, and offers very little protection. It's also just for a re-imagining of an existing design. The real "meat" as it were, is in a utility patent...and that's the one with Bracq, not Wilfert, listed as co-inventor. That's the one that would offer real protection to the inventors or assignees, and notes real distinct invention. The bar is pretty low for a design patent, and extremely high for utility. There is no "international patent", so inventors must patent where they have the largest market potential...which is why the US Patents are so important, and the German patents, well,  good in Germany only (at that time). A German patent only would prevent BMW or Audi or other German firm from copying, but not General Motors...or the Japanese. Turns out that nobody really licensed that design...and for whatever its worth, it's all ancient history today--sitting on our cars, and those of the 107.

The contributions of Bela Barenyi, Karl Wilfert, Fritz Nallinger, Friedrich Geiger, Rudolph Uhlenhaut (and just a tad bit later, Bruno Sacco and Erich Waxenberger) are all well known; a dream team. To discount Bracq's contributions is just naive. Wilfert thought of Bracq "as a son..."; he was the man that hired him, and the one saddest to see him go when he returned to France to raise a family in his native land.

Are you a lurker or bystander here? Then, don't discount the silent enmity the Germans have towards the French--and vice versa; it runs both ways. It may be unspoken but it was (is?) certainly real, and dates back to the time of Julius Caesar. A great example from the 1960s was the BMW 1600ti coupe, designed by Bracq while back in France at contract design house, B&L in 1968. A prototype was built, and the project authorized by BMW for production. Unfortunately, BMW was tiny at that time (this was BEFORE even the 2002) and had no excess production capacity. Thus, it was going to be built by French firm Chausson (Société des usines Chausson). Sacré bleu! A respectable French firm making German cars? Renault and Peugeot (principal shareholders) wouldn't hear of it, and shut the project down. They also shut down something similar with Adam Opel. 

It's easy for armchair researchers to pull out foreign language patents, photos from the internet, and draw their own conclusions. But there are noted and respected authors and historians such as Reed Hitchcock, Gavin Farmer, Pierre Ernst, Fulvio Cinti, Christophe Bonnaud and others who aside from impeccable research, have spent a lot of time with Bracq over the years, and crafted well written and researched articles and books. For each photo you pick off the internet, this group has seen dozens of otherwise unpublished photos and works you cannot find elsewhere. As one who spent several days exclusively with Mr. and Mrs. Bracq, I can certainly vouch for such a trove of history. He gave me copies of a LOT of things, and very little of it online.

For whatever reason or reasons, you may choose to discount Bracq's contribution to the Pagoda or to Mercedes-Benz in general. That's certainly an opinion. The unmistakable fact is he was the first Frenchman hired by MB after the war. He was chief of the Advanced Design Studios for ten years. He worked FOR Karl Wilfert (Chief of Car Body Development) and Fritz Nallinger (Head of Development). After those ten years, while toiling at B&L, he designed the first TGV high speed train, and then the aforementioned BMW--which then led to his employ in Munich where the first 3, 5, and 6 series cars were penned. Maybe you'll discount that, too.

There's a lot of people that believe the moon landing was a hoax, too. If that's the case I have no idea where all those aerospace engineers on Long Island (NY) were going every day if not to work. Grumman was just one contractor on that project. These were my neighbors; the fathers of my friends.

So, believe what you choose.
Michael Salemi
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66andBlue

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....
Are you a lurker or bystander here? Then, don't discount the silent enmity the Germans have towards the French--and vice versa; it runs both ways. It may be unspoken but it was (is?) certainly real, and dates back to the time of Julius Caesar. A great example from the 1960s was the BMW 1600ti coupe, designed by Bracq while back in France at contract design house, B&L in 1968. A prototype was built, and the project authorized by BMW for production. Unfortunately, BMW was tiny at that time (this was BEFORE even the 2002) and had no excess production capacity. Thus, it was going to be built by French firm Chausson (Société des usines Chausson). Sacré bleu! A respectable French firm making German cars? Renault and Peugeot (principal shareholders) wouldn't hear of it, and shut the project down. They also shut down something similar with Adam Opel. 

As expected, classic gaslighting, unpacking the old 2006 playbook again: https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=6181.msg38359#msg38359

Did Daimler get it all wrong?
https://media.daimler.com/marsMediaSite/instance/ko.xhtml?oid=9913243&filename=100th-anniversary-of-Friedrich-Geiger

{PS: gaslighting ->https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting#Etymology  }
« Last Edit: June 23, 2020, 19:04:57 by 66andBlue »
Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
1966 230SL automatic 334G light blue (sold)
1968 280SL automatic (now 904G midnight blue)

MikeSimon

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While holding dual citizenship, I still consider myself German, being born there and lived there for the first 36 years of my life. I do know about the frictions between the Germans and the French but I want to disagree with the statement that it goes all the way back to Julius Caesar. After all, we both lived in the same empire under Charles Le Magne oder Karl der Große who was crowned in a city that is part of both French and German history as Aix La Chapelle for the French or Aachen for the Germans. I am not a historian and do not want to argue when our "feud" really started, but I would want to place it into the era of Napoleon or so. Especially as "Germany" really di not exist that much earlier as a nation or a common entity.

I need to share a nice experience regarding that subject.
Several years ago, my wife - she is American - were on one of our regular trips to Europe. I decided to take her to Paris for week. I warned her about the attitude of the French towards foreigners and the possibility of frustrating experiences. And much to my surprise, I had to eat crow. We had the nicest time. Everybody, including the waiters in the restaurants, was extremely friendly and cordial. So much for the animosity between French an Germans.










1970/71 280SL Automatic
Sandy Beige
Parchment Leather
Power Steering
Automatic
Hardtop
Heated Tinted Rear Window
German specs
3rd owner

JamesL

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I'm guessing the original poster is hoping he has a panzerwagen
James L
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MikeSimon

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I am not sure, but I think 1971 did not have a 280SL in the R107, did it? Somehow I remember the 280 came out when the V8 was upped from 350 to 450
1970/71 280SL Automatic
Sandy Beige
Parchment Leather
Power Steering
Automatic
Hardtop
Heated Tinted Rear Window
German specs
3rd owner