Author Topic: PC vs. Mac  (Read 51306 times)

Dash808

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PC vs. Mac
« on: February 06, 2010, 09:12:10 »
Over Christmas my wife and I went all in and made the switch to Mac. 
We traded our Blackberrys, laptops, and desktop for iPhones, Macbooks, and a Mac desktop and have never looked back.  So long MS.  The difference is amazing and my only regret is waiting so long to defect.     
This time the grass is greener on the other side  :)

Any other defectors out there?

Chan Johnson
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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2010, 11:20:59 »
Hi Chan,

I switched to a MacBook Air this past summer. Used Dell's, and Compaqs since mid 80's.
My wife uses Macs for her business.  Love my Mac!
Bob

SteveK

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2010, 13:24:07 »
I have a 13" MacBook Pro and a PC desktop.  I'm using the desktop less and less these days.  There is no comparison, everything works on the Mac all of the time.

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2010, 17:03:26 »
No Mac here but I do Have an iPhone.  The iPad looks nice but will wait for the next upgrade.

J. Huber

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2010, 17:31:03 »
Well, I am a double agent...

My first computer was a PC (IBM P/S 2). It was a pain. DOS commands, non-window based, etc... Somehow got me through Grad school and a rather boring thesis -- but I digress... I then switched to a PowerMac and was hooked. Like you Chan, I swore off the PC. (even though this was waaaay back in terms of technology.) However, once in the "real world" everything at the College was Windows/PC based. So I bought a Gateway for home. Then a Dell. They have been fine and served their purpose. The kids, however, have an Imac which is adorable and reliable. And we have more Ipods than I can count...

Its hard to say what we will get next time for our home use -- the Macs have changed so much and have obviously only gotten better (although not much less expensive). The Windows XP generation seemed pretty stable to me and skipping ahead to W7 may also be ok. The cost has gone way down which is a factor in my book.
James
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mdsalemi

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2010, 22:18:22 »
I grew up on pre PC's; moved to PC's and had Mac's thrust upon me in grad school in 1984.  They were cute, interesting--but one software bug caused an entire class to despise them: these first generation Macs, V1, September 1984, would allow you to create a document in any number of pages, but would only SAVE the first 9 pages.  I can't tell you how many people pulled their hair out after working all night on term papers etc. only to find the next day that most of their work was lost.  Then there was the little "bomb", which was Apple's cute way of saying they *&^%$ everything up and the only way out was accepting the screw up.

But, I'll cut some slack to Apple, it was gen 1.  On to PC's for real work.

Then I found myself back in the throes of the fledgling digital imaging arena, where the first front end programs were $15,000 software packages running on a $5,000 Mac.  Then the MacFx.  Infinitely superior to gen 1, but still way behind a PC in terms of software, bang for the buck, and all things NOT related to imaging.  So many programs related to photos and page assembly were only Mac based.

That was then.  Today, despite over 30 years of PC experience, I'm very seriously considering a Mac.  Nearly all of what I do is available in both Mac and PC versions.  A lot of peripherals are interchangable.  The only thing holding me back immediately is the cost of all my software changes.  Photoshop, Quark, InDesign, MS-Office, etc. all together are pretty pricey.

I'm just a little tired of having my PC spend a lot of time every day and every week purging (or scanning itself) for viruses.  This stuff takes a lot of time.  Every day Windows and the virus/internet software is downloading updates.  I'm a little tired of it.  Every now and then my computer (a nice Dell core 2 duo) goes into a frenzy and the disk starts churning, sometimes for 10 minutes or more and I have NO idea of what it is doing.  You can do almost nothing when this is happening.  Everything comes to a screeching halt.  This is purely the result of infinitely complex and sloppy programming.

I have to go to the Apple Store and talk to some folks there, and talk to some of my Mac friends to see where I need to be hardware wise to match the software I need.  But that's a trick.  Despite the fact that our economy here is in the toilet, you can't get NEAR the Apple store on a typical mall trip--it's full of teeny boppers and their iphone, ipod etc, getting reflashed, repaired, or shopping.  Serious investigation is impossible when 6 giggling girls are wondering why their Iphones aren't playing the Jonas Brothers correctly.

My wife says go on a Tuesday, 10AM when the mall opens, and make sure it is on a school day!  Maybe this week. :-\
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Dash808

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2010, 09:50:14 »
Well it was the Lenovo/ Vista experience that broke this camel's back.  A 6 month new Lenovo laptop with Vista 64 bit that caused countless hours of aggravation from day one. 

Yes (most) Macs are more pricey but in the long run I think it equals out as one Mac should outlast two or three PC's, plus they just look darn good. I agree, James, PC prices are very cheap, almost disposable cheap, which they should be thinking back to my Lenovo experience.  I ended up giving it away.  I also gave away my old Dell Inspiron, and a Gateway desktop. 

I ended up with a 15" Macbook Pro, a 13" Macbook for the wife, a Mac Mini for a desktop, and four iPhone's (Don't ask).     
I did quite a bit of researching before taking the plunge and ended up buying everything through Apple's refurbished site.  You get the same warrantee and a good as new machine for a little discount.  The site is continuously updated and some machine's like the Mini goes extremely fast.
I think the Mac Mini will pull more people away from PC's.  They are the most affordable Mac to date (Starting @ $599).  Still decently powerful and very affordable.  Just plug in your existing monitor, USB keyboard, and mouse and your set. 

Michael, if your running a Dell Core Duo, a Mini would surely meet your needs.  If you do a lot of heavy video & photo editing and have some extra $$ a Mac Pro would really make you smile. 
What I did was create two partitions on all the machines.  On the 2nd partition I allocated 50gb and loaded Windows 7 (gasp) in the unlikely event that I run into a website, program, or situation that absolutely requires Windows.  It is really slick to have a dual boot option and easily switch between Mac or Windows.  The ironic thing is that Windows seems to run better on a Mac! 
I also installed MS Office for Mac and Adobe Photoshop CS4. 
I hope the Pagoda book is backed up!

I think what intrigues me is being able to walk up to my laptop, lift up the screen and presto it's ready to go if only in sleep mode.
Full boot time is only 30 sec from powering on to surfing the internet.  My "state of the art" Lenovo took around 5 minutes to startup.

The nice thing about Apple is they actually think when they design something, except for iTunes but that's another story... 


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Peter van Es

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2010, 14:42:53 »
Pleased to see so many of you making the switch. Statement of interest: I own shares in Apple, and am non-executive chairman of the largest Apple retailer in the Netherlands.

I made the switch two years ago. And I used to be a hardcore windows person. If you are a Windows person, if you haven't experienced the out-of-box experience of Apple in person, you should go and sit next to someone setting up an iMac.

The biggest hindrance to people switching to Apple is fear of the unknown. Everyone knows that buying a new Windows PC and then getting all of your old stuff from your old PC across is a two day job. First a two hour installation process of the OS after switching it on. Then making a backup DVD. Then removing all the crap demo software that they've bloated your PC with. Then installing your virus scanner, firewall etc. Then setting up your internet, e-mail account and so on. And then installing all your software again, downloading updates etc. Installing all your printer drivers. And finally rummaging around your old files and copying them across.

People then think: and that's how long it takes when I know my way around the system. They fear that it would be worse when you switch to a Mac. The reality is the opposite. You unpack it, switch it on, enter your e-mail details and 15 minute after carrying the box into your house, you can start doing productive work. (Or start messing with your music in iTunes, or your photo's in iPhoto...). That's one other big benefit: the iLife applications included with your Mac are actually very good.

And yes, you can then easily copy all your Windows files across.

I've gone so far as to not even have Microsoft Office on my Mac anymore. I've switched to Pages, Number and Keynote, since Office 2007 screwed up all the menu's I was used to with Office 2003. I have a free install of OpenOffice for when I need it.  Another big advantage: family packs. iWork costs $79, but for $99 you can install it on up to 5 Macs in your household (even if one of those Macs is in a student dorm somewhere).

I have VirtualBox on my Mac (it's free) and in that I have an install of Windows XP for the ONE program I still run I have no replacement for (Microsoft Money, and Microsoft in its infinite wisdom has pulled that product and will not be producing updates). So when they kill that, I need a good replacement for it for the Mac, and haven't found it yet, I need good multi-currency support and good international stock market support.

Then on price, or value. If you don't value your own time, then obviously a PC will appear cheaper. However, do understand how Dell sells. They lure you with a low price, but try to upsell you at every corner. Take a relatively high end iMac, and compare screen resolutions: the 21.5" has 1920x1080 pixels. The 27" has a whopping 2560x1440 pixels. Now make sure that the Dell (or HP, or whatever) system you choose is priced with a screen with the same specification. Dell's monitor that has specs that beat Apples (at 2560x1600) costs: $1399... that's only the monitor.

If you do that comparison meticulously, for CPU, RAM, disk space, add the antivirus software, and possibly even equivalent applications to the iLife suite, and then compare a Dell with the Apple, you'll find that the price difference is tiny. Then do the following check: on eBay, look for average prices for a 2 year old iMac. Then look for prices for  a similarly equipped two year old PC. The PC will cost next to nothing, whilst the iMac will still fetch a good price. Look at it like a car. A new Mercedes is more expensive to buy, but you'd be writing off less over the life of the car.

If you're interested, currently 15,28% of our visitors use a Mac (82,71% use Windows). A couple of months ago that was less than 14%. Overall worldwide Apple marketshare is below 10%, so you can see, we already have knowledgeable users here!

Peter

(PS: another great secret... if you have all your music in iTunes, did you know that you can stream it wirelessly to a stereo system using Airport Express, ($99) controlled by the free app for your iPhone or iPod Touch, Apple Remote? )
« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 22:40:07 by Peter van Es »
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mdsalemi

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2010, 19:01:05 »
I should have added one thing: Peter van Es.  If you have not met him, when you do, you will listen intently and he will command a lot of immediate respect.  I spent a few days with him around PUB and learned a lot about a lot of things, the Mac being one of them.

Peter needed to print something on my color laser here at my home.  Now, it was not too difficult to set it up for me on my primary machine when the printer was new.  But on my OTHER machines--those that access the printer through the wireless router ("Salemi's WiFi Hotspot"), it proved an inordinately tricky setup.  I managed to make it work but goodness knows how an average citizen could do it; average being one without a technical background and without decades of PC experience.  Peter came, in, his Mac found the router; found the printer, and more importantly, found what it needed to know to operate the printer without much input from him.  He was printing in a matter of moments.  With the smile of a Cheshire cat, mind you! ;)

Chan--All the files for the Pagoda Style book reside on an external USB hard drive--none are on my PC's internal.  This gets backed up to a secondary external hard drive very frequently.  I was smart enough to smell the Vista troubles and like many, never made the switch.

It is interesting that Peter mentions iTunes, for if there is one thing that gives me pause, it's that.  My daughter uses iTunes and perhaps because of my early indoctrination in cutting edge software, I find absolutely nothing intuitive and nothing to like about anything with iTunes.  If my PC is working well (mostly it does) MP3 ripping, music management, and related work exceedingly well.   Then there is the fact that Apple chose about the absolute WORST wireless carrier on the planet in which to partner with their iPhone.  It is akin to Rolls-Royce putting a Yugo engine in their car--the best hardware system (iPhone) and the worst carrier (AT&T).  It's all about profit and product volume--they'd have perhaps double the demand for the iPhone overnight by switching to all the carriers; instead they chose one, and the worst one at that.  That's not my opinon folks, that's long-standing industry lore.  I keep hearing that the iPhone will be on Verizon this year.

Oh, and for those concerned: I certainly will NOT be making any PC/Mac changes until the Pagoda Style book is AT the printers!
Michael Salemi
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Dash808

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2010, 22:13:43 »
I agree, Verizon & Apple = a home run.   Hopefully that will happen next time around.  I believe the Apple and AT&T agreement expires in June?  Coincidentally that is when the next Gen iPhone should be rolled out.   

Interesting info, Peter.  It does seem more people prefer iWork over Office.  In iWork you can still modify and save in Office format.

I think when 1st timers start Mac shopping they wonder why in general the hardware is not quite as powerful as PC's when it is actually the opposite.  The demands of a Mac program or OS is not as taxing on the computer's hardware so the system runs faster and more efficiently, in my opinion. 
Also resale on a Mac is amazingly high. 

And in Steve Jobs words "It just works."  Michael and Peter, your printer experience proved that statement.       
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Cees Klumper

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2010, 22:30:27 »
I bought an Ipod for a music player a couple of years ago. Did not like the sound quality, nor the fact that the Itunes music I bought for it can only be played on their software. Sure you can convert it if you spend the time finding the right software, but that proved to be more hassle that I want to deal with. And once you have Itunes on your PC, it wants to update all the time, and these are very large files.
Anyway, because friends are so positive about the MAC, when time came for my wife's laptop to be replaced last year, I got her a MAC laptop. Every once in a while I'll use it, but I really don't like it; how cumbersome some commands are, the control pad's limited functionality, the bad key board quality, the fact that GarageBand stopped working and I can't figure out why, I could go on. The sales person (Peter: this was the Apple reseller in the Raadhuisstraat), when I asked about a virus scanner said: Apple does not have this problem. I still don't believe that! He also sold me software that he said would be perfectly compatible with MS products, but there are a lot of issues with that compatability, and also there are a lot of issues getting that software (like the spreadsheet or word processor) to do some very, very basic things like printing. The only thing the Apple does well as far as I am concerned is start up very quickly.
So in summary I am not an Apple fan, even after trying to become one.
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Peter van Es

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2010, 22:37:41 »
Cees,

I appreciate this.... but you're still applying years of Windows thinking to an Apple product. You'll need to "unlearn" all your old habits. The next time we see each other, bring the Mac... and I'll help you with it!

Peter
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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2010, 22:46:10 »
I'm starting in late on this one, but I am with the group.
I had an early 80's Mac SE with a upgraded 40 MB harddrive !!! (WOOOO  ;D).
Then I went PC for years.
A few years ago I had 3 PCs in my home on a wired and wireless network with printers.
I was spending a fair amount of time being the home IT guy.
I had no Pagoda then.
Now I have 2 Mac Minis, and an iMac on wired and wireless network with printers. There is no need for a home IT guy anymore and I have time to work on my Pagoda.
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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2010, 14:35:28 »
I agree Macs are better. But they are in most cases a lot more money. I do all my graphics on a Mac and all my surfing and accounting on Pc's. My friend, an IT guy has set up all my pc's with Norton Ghost. I never run any anti virus software. If the PC slows down I just do a full recovery using Ghost and my computer is back running just like new. PC's are designed to fail over time and it creates a cycle of repair and buying anti virus software. If you are unfortunate enough to have PC's, get norton Ghost and set up partitions in your hard drive so you can return to a pristine environment at any time. I don't know how to do it, my friend has set up all my pc's with this feature and hates Windows for creating this cloud of doom over every PC.
  So, if you want to run a PC and enjoy some real cheap hardware check out Norton Ghost, it works for me until my next computer, a MaC.

Cees Klumper

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2010, 20:58:01 »
Cees,

I appreciate this.... but you're still applying years of Windows thinking to an Apple product. You'll need to "unlearn" all your old habits. The next time we see each other, bring the Mac... and I'll help you with it!

Peter

Thanks Peter - that's probably what I need, unlearning. Just like I am doing now, unlearning Amsterdam and getting to know Geneva. Well, today I received two invitations to the Geneva auto show, so that's good. OK, I will give it one more try, maybe we can work on it in France this summer ...
Cees Klumper
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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2010, 21:28:01 »
All this talk of Mac's convinced me that I needed to look at my computing needs so I went to the Mac Shop yesterday and got a quote for a replacement iMac for home and a MacBook Air for travel with the hangons.

One of the things stated was that I don't really need the Nortons 360 AntiVirus software that I am currently using. I note here that some still have Microsoft software on them so wont I still need an antivirus software if I also use Internet Explorer?

Now all I need to do is take the jump and spend the money.

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Peter van Es

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2010, 22:54:31 »
If you use Microsoft Office for a Mac you don't need anti-virus software. If you run the entire Windows operating system (either in Bootcamp, or in Parallels or Virtualbox) I would install a Windows anti-virus product -- except for when you do not have an internet browser on that Windows system, and no -- or well protected -- e-mail.

OS X is less susceptible to viruses because a) the system is less vulnerable and b) fewer people write viruses for MAC's because it's easier to write viruses for PC's and you have a target audience that's about 8.5x the size. Hence OS X doesn't need a virus scanner.

Internet Explorer is no longer available for OS X, so if you run that, you must be running Windows. But with great alternatives such as Safari, Firefox or Chrome, why do you feel the need to run Internet Explorer at all?

Peter
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mdsalemi

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2010, 02:22:24 »
For those that didn't really read between the lines, the early Mac's, (Mac II, Mac fX, etc.) were DREADFUL no matter what the Mac lovers say.

They crashed so often it makes Windows look like a gift from heaven.  Rebuilding a desktop was a regular occurance--and sometimes it took HOURS.  Fonts--you needed TWO sets of fonts (and goodness help you if they didn't all match) to do anything--a screen font to view it on your monitor, and a printer font to actually print anything.  It took TrueType to finally sort it all out, and bring it down to earth.  Prior to True Type, a single font cost in excess of $100--some a LOT more than that.  They used inordinately expensive SCSI drives--more expensive, little benefit compared to IDE.  The Mac's were the front end to my systems and I cursed them EVERY DAY.  But there was just no software on the PC's at the time, to do anything remotely similar in the graphics environment (today's equivalent of Photoshop and Page Design Programs like Quark, InDesign, Illustrator, etc.)

THAT WAS THEN.  This is now.  It's come full circle--Apple sorted it all out.  Windows is still turning people like me--and Iconic into IT guys and we don't want to be.

So, Peter, it isn't fear of the unknown--it is more undoing 20 years of behavior.  No fear, but it's like starting a new marriage? (not that I would know, but it's not something I want to do)  And, anyone in "PC Land" at least knows where they take the next step.  Moving to a Mac today for me, is going to take a bit of learning what and where the state of the art is...and how best to choose.
Michael Salemi
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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2010, 03:18:41 »
Mike,
with all respect I have to disagree, these machines were not dreadful at all but very reliable.
I used my first Mac II for office work (until the Quadra came out) but had several siblings in the lab, a MacSE and a MacIIfx. The SE arrived in 1988 together with an instrument under its control (a 96-well microplate reader if you want to know) and both were still functional and very useful when I retired in 2007!  Never replaced the hard drive, or either processors (it also had a floating point co-processor).  The only problem I had was that the IT group did not allow the computer to be linked to the first local net when it was installed since these guys were all Microsoft brain-washed (but a smart grad student figured out a method to beat them anyway  :) )
When I bought my second reader 5 years later the company had decided to couple its newer version with a PC.  Why? Because they liked the fact that they could sell a very expensive maintenance contract - the reader didn't make trouble, no the computer always needed to be worked on because every time MS changed something (which had to be installed as mandated by the IT department) the interface was screwed up and a company technician had to fix it again.  >:(  Nice little racket - wouldn't you say?
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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2010, 04:18:25 »
Does anyone remember "soft windows?" That was about as pathetic as it gets -- trying to have an Apple behave like a PC.

I have to also disagree about the earliest Apples being unreliable. The Mac IIs struck me as pretty durable relative to the PCs of that era.

My fear now -- should I "upgrade" back to a Mac from my PC is -- converting (and saving) all my years of Quicken and TurboTax files. I have no idea where the original software is and if it would even be compatible... Anyone know? Pictures and word files are no big deal.
James
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66andBlue

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2010, 04:33:40 »
Hi James,
transfer one of your old Quicken or TurboTax files to portable USB drive and stick into a Mac that has TurboTax (or Quicken)  installed. I would bet that the Mac version will be able to open it. Just try it.
SoftWindows .. sure! But do you remember "Volkswriter"?
Alfred
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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2010, 05:16:00 »

SoftWindows .. sure! But do you remember "Volkswriter"?

No, not really. During the 80s I somehow did all my undergraduate stuff on a "type writer." Anyone remember those? I did take a computer class though -- there were some kind of punch cards involved? and we had to learn BASIC. Pretty much turned me into a History major.

So as I peek at the Apple store I see the Mini. And then the Imac. Or the big Daddy the MacPro?  If I want a desktop, are those my choices?And if I did the mini, is the LCD Cinema Monitor for 899 my only choice? (the mini is a desktop computer isn't it?)
James
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66andBlue

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2010, 05:54:28 »
Yes, the Mac mini is a desktop computer and you'll need to buy a monitor. Remember that you get a College discount!
You might find a good used monitor, but it needs a compatible plug or adapter. And if you do check the screen for dead pixels.
I use the mini and my wife has my older iMac (non-Intel) with the integrated screen. I prefer to have them separate because sometimes I like to connect my MacBook to an external screen. 
Volkswriter see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VolksWriter .
Alfred
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Garry

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2010, 06:03:59 »
James,
Looking at the book I have from Apple in front of me there are two Mac Mini a 2.26GHz with 2GB RAM and 160GB Hard Drive and the 2.53GHz with 4GB RAM and a 320GB Hard Drive.
The lower spec can be upgraded to a 4GB Ram
Alfred, I am tossing up between the iMac and having a Mini with seperate monitor. Only problem is that Apple is quite expensive for their displays here quoting me $AUD1,499 for the LED Cinema Display. When I put the two together they exceed the price of the top 21.5" iMac.

Decisions!!!
« Last Edit: February 09, 2010, 06:22:55 by Garry »
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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2010, 07:16:53 »
Any display will work with the Mini, with the right adapter.  You would either need a VGA adapter for most displays, or a DVI  adapter. 
Right now I am using my wife's 22" display off her Gateway with a VGA adapter.   

Apple displays are the best no doubt, however Dell was just offering a Viewsonic 22" display for $130, shipped.   That's hard to beat. But if you're thinking of a Mini and an Apple display, price wise you would be better off with an iMac.  Everything you need plus a wireless keyboard and mouse.   I would say the Apple Care 3 yr warrantee is a must especially with an iMac because if the display goes out, your toast.   One of the reasons I went with the Mini.  Plus if you are ambitious enough the Mini's hardware can be upgraded (Not Apple approved) whereas an iMac is very well sealed. 
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mdsalemi

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2010, 13:47:45 »
Mike,
with all respect I have to disagree, these machines were not dreadful at all but very reliable.
I used my first Mac II for office work (until the Quadra came out) but had several siblings in the lab, a MacSE and a MacIIfx. The SE arrived in 1988 together with an instrument under its control (a 96-well microplate reader if you want to know) and both were still functional and very useful when I retired in 2007!  Never replaced the hard drive, or either processors (it also had a floating point co-processor).  The only problem I had was that the IT group did not allow the computer to be linked to the first local net when it was installed since these guys were all Microsoft brain-washed (but a smart grad student figured out a method to beat them anyway  :) )
When I bought my second reader 5 years later the company had decided to couple its newer version with a PC.  Why? Because they liked the fact that they could sell a very expensive maintenance contract - the reader didn't make trouble, no the computer always needed to be worked on because every time MS changed something (which had to be installed as mandated by the IT department) the interface was screwed up and a company technician had to fix it again.  >:(  Nice little racket - wouldn't you say?

Alfred, you usually disagree with me anyway!  But nonetheless, in the CEPS front end applications, where we were working with early versions of Quark Xpress, and other proprietary software for imaging; Adobe's first products, PostScript in its early generations, expensive fonts, and file sizes that were orders of magnitude greater than any laboratory or office application--the MAC's were dreadful.  I was there.  But, nothing had been ported yet to a PC.  The problem was really that our needs were far greater than the hardware was up to; and the software wasn't there yet either.  The limits of hardware and software were being pushed; we were on the edge.  Aside from security issues prevalent today because of the internet, all the foilbles that people complain about with PC's and their operating system, the system crashes, etc. were all there on the Mac.  Just because you didn't experience them doesn't mean they didn't exist.  It just means you had simple applications, in a relative sense.  ;)  This was the dawn of the digital imaging arena.  JPG didn't exist.  File compression didn't exist.  Color images coming from room sized scanners and were hundreds of megabytes in size.  Remember this is a time when main memory was typically 640K.  Disk drives topped out at 300MB, and those were enormous and cost $15,000.  We had to use virtual drives with images spread out over several drives.  When it came time to create a PostScript RIP, our vendors chose a UNIX system running on a PS2--the MAC just could not cut it at that time.  They chose Unix because they needed real-time; they chose PS/2 because its expansion bus, though proprietary was superior at the time to generic PC's.  These kinds of problems were to be expected--we were porting what were mainframe applications to the desktop world, and the first to do so.  I worked for a firm called Scitex, and then independently serving their customers for many years.  (N.B. you can go to most file format lists and see something called "Scitex CT"; yes, that's the original full color, 32-bit, CMYK digital image format).  Scitex was created by a man who saw commercial applications from the digital imaging work he did for the Israeli Defense Forces and the U.S. Government with satellite imagery in the 1960's.  Scitex's team of brilliant Israeli engineers invented digital imaging as we know it, and developed all the core products that feed that market today--scanners, image processing, ink-jet printing, CTP, imagesetters, platesetters and related.  They stuck with proprietary hardware and it eventually killed them--but parts of them live on in HP and Kodak today.  The photo below shows a mainstream mid-1980's CEPS system--this is the back end of what the Macs were used for on the front end.  It took 10 tons of air conditioning to keep the equipment cool, and a 50 kVa power supply.  The photo is at Parade Magazine, which was an early adopter of the technology; I trained the entire company.

But as I mentioned, that was then.  Tightening of the software, and the introduction of things like file compression (JPG) and skyrocketing capacities of memory and disk drives made everything work.  You should note that Apple abandoned NuBus, SCSI, their proprietary memory schemes, etc, and finally went to more robust and lower cost peripherals made popular on the PC platform.  They even abandoned the Motorola processors and use--gasp!  I N T E L!!

And the purpose of my post was to explain WHY I had abandoned the Mac early on; not to point at any present problems.  Now the issue is I've been away for so long, I have to really get smart before making any kind of purchase decision.

I'd never go with an integrated unit--I change monitors too frequently.  I know I need a LOT of memory to work efficiently.  Folks, some of the PHOTOS (single photos) used for the Pagoda Style book are in excess of 20MB to start; when they get layered in Photoshop they grow, sometimes to 100MB.  Disk I/O speed is paramount, since every time you update or save, you are re-writing these enormous files.  Processor speed (net useful; not just speed in gHz) is paramount, too.  One digital photo filter I applied recently to Gus Monahu's page took nearly 10 full minutes of computation to process.  Of course when you sit and wait for this to happen, those 10 minutes seem like an eternity.  These are applications and procedures that dwarf most internet surfing and office apps.

So, I'm listening to all these things.  I am appreciating all the advise and suggestions, which focus my search efforts.  And when I can beat my way past the teeny boppers with their iPhone issues, I'll visit the Mac store.  One thing that still is dreadful about Macs is their distribution model. >:(  For a company with less than 20% market share and nowhere to go but up, with generally acknowledged better hardware and user experience than the collective PC world, that distribution model is holding them back.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2010, 16:00:39 by mdsalemi »
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Peter van Es

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2010, 16:38:16 »
Mike.

You are THE target audience for a MacPro... I know, I have one too!

Peter
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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2010, 13:03:26 »
Mike.

You are THE target audience for a MacPro... I know, I have one too!

Peter

I'm coming to figure that out.  The early MacPro's are still commanding $1,500-$2,000; some higher when equipped.  The immediate predecessors, G5 towers dual core, are more down to earth but usually are not coming with enough memory or disk space, so you have to add, add, add...

What I'm hoping to find is some photographer/designer with a 2-4 year old MacPro properly equipped that wants the latest...then maybe he can have an exit strategy and me, and entry one.  I've posted on Craig's List just that.
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Peter van Es

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2010, 16:46:06 »
You said you weren't going to make a switch until you'd finished the book?

Here's the trick. I have a MacPro, two models back. Still plenty of horsepower (2 x 2.66 GHz dual core Xeon processors, i.e. 4 CPU's). I bought it from an Apple reseller that had it as a demo machine, until after it's successor came out. No-one wanted to buy this expensive machine, especially now there was a newer model out... I revisited that store once a month or so for 4 months. Then I told the boss the truth: " you'll be stuck with that machine forever... however, I'll take it off your hands for 50% off", and waved some cash in front of him.

10 minutes later I walked out with the box. I then bought extra RAM (I have 9 GB now, and extra SATA II hard drives (at less than $100 per 1TB) and I reckon this box will last me another 5 years at the least. I've had it for almost 2 years now, and it already was a year old when I got it. The performance difference between my box and the latest model is probably only around 40%... and I've always said that if a PC isn't at least twice as fast on everything, you wont notice the difference.

The physical build quality of a MacPro is amazing. Nothing, and I repeat, nothing like anything you've ever seen in the PC world.

Peter
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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2010, 19:10:47 »
Since my first computer purchase was in 1992 you can call me a late bloomer. Therefore any contribution of a technical nature I might make would probably be irrelevant to this discussion.

I can however provide some interesting commentary on the man behind the machines. Because of where I live,  I have been in close proximity to Steve Jobs on two occasions. While strolling at the local mall I recognized him in a high-end sunglasses store perusing the merchandise. Sitting just outside while eating my ice-cream cone allowed me to spy on him. Each pair of sunglasses he picked up became subject to a thorough engineering  examination. I witnessed his self induced "robotic trance" as he meticulously analyzed each feature and methodically categorized their shortcomings.

The other time was when the local AppleStore opened. On the first day of business he was there in person. As we walked up to the store we saw a metallic blue Viper GTS , with traffic cones all around it,  right smack in front of the store. The King was holding court, and entry to the store required a some kind of special pass.

As an aside, can you imagine a dweeb like Bill Gates behind the wheel of a Viper?   Scary

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Cees Klumper

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2010, 21:03:46 »
As an aside, can you imagine a dweeb like Bill Gates behind the wheel of a Viper?   Scary
Larry in CA

You're right Larry - it's hard to imagine that someone who is donating over $10 billion to vaccinating children in the poorest countries (i.e. Bill and Melinda Gates) against deadly diseases, also holding court while us mere mortals can gawk at his Viper. Different strokes!
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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2010, 23:05:34 »
Peter--find me a deal like that and I'll move on it!  The distribution model is different here, I think...there's Best Buy (limited selection) and the Apple Store.  I went into Best Buy today and chatted up the kid for a bit.  He agreed with me about the Apple store--at least it isn't just me.  He said he gets a lot of "annoyed" customers coming in to Best Buy because they can't even walk into the Apple store, you need an "appointment" to LOOK at a computer.  Again, it's not a lot of buyers at the Apple store, it's 95% gawkers; kids dreaming about air books; problems with the iPod, playing with all the iPhones, iPod Touch, stuff like that.  People--serious people--who want to look and poke and ask questions, etc. can't get far in an Apple Store.  I have to see if there are any Apple retailers around that have a full line.  Have not seen any, but that may be just because I didn't look yet.  But all the places that used to sell computers around here are gone.

Was surprised to see full CD copies of Snow Leopard--the latest OS--for $29!  $49 if you want a "family 5-pak".  Now's that's an eye opener.  Current price for a Win7 license--upgrade only--is over $100~.  That's for the home version, and not the full version either.

And yes, I won't give up the PC until the book is done.  It really gives me no issues, and there's a continuity issue.  Go with what you know.
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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #32 on: March 30, 2010, 02:28:20 »
So....

Thanks in part to this thread -- and partly my own good sense, today I made the switch (back). Bought an Imac and a Macbook. My teenage daughter had been bugging me but I really wanted a laptop myself, so I compromised -- a pretty white one that is mine but she gets to use it.... The Imac is mainly for mommy and me. Other kids get this Dell. The Macs are Just so cool -- love them already. However, like all things computer -- it didn't take long for me to have a hang-up. Hoping you guys can help... Here it is:

My plan was to continue to use my PC as out third computer since it has a lot of stuff amassed over the years and still works ok. For homework, etc. It has the DSL modem hooked to it. I had hoped to add a router? to the PC -- so the two new macs could get Internet wirelessly. The Mac people seemed to think no problem. The girl sold me Airport Express for this purpose. Problem is I don't think its right. It has one ethernet jack. The DSL Modem has one ethernet jack which ties it to my PC. If I unhook it from computer to go to Airport Express, my connection is gone. I am thinking maybe I need Airport Extreme or a Netgear product to accomplish what I want? Anybody know about these things?

So for the meantime I am here on this PC, just gazing at that pretty Imac over there... can't wait to see some Pagodas on that screen  :)

James
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w113dude

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #33 on: March 30, 2010, 11:52:59 »
James,

Quote
The Mac people seemed to think no problem. The girl sold me Airport Express for this purpose. Problem is I don't think its right. It has one ethernet jack. The DSL Modem has one ethernet jack which ties it to my PC. If I unhook it from computer to go to Airport Express, my connection is gone. I am thinking maybe I need Airport Extreme or a Netgear product to accomplish what I want? Anybody know about these things?

You should hook up your DSL modem to your new Air port Express, This way all your computers would have Wi-Fi. if all your computers are on the same floor and not much concrete barriers you should have wireless to all three computers, Provided they all have wireless capability. If your PC is not Wi-Fi ready then you can buy a small router ($30.00) at best buy and you'll be set.
I use Airport Express for three Macs, works perfect.

mdsalemi

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #34 on: March 30, 2010, 12:28:52 »
Jim,

Shaun is right.  However, I can't believe they sold you something like AirPort without at least briefing you on how to use it!  That's crazy.  If you go to the Apple website or just google airport express you'll find the connection information.

This is a clear case of the entirely different mode of thinking used by Apple.  You are used to PC-Land like me, where you would have in your home a "static" (i.e. non-movable) device such as a NetGear or D-Link Wireless Router, complete with antenna (wireless-G) or several antennas (wireless-N) and it isn't something you would generally want to move or take with you anywhere.  It's an essential part of your home network.

While the Airport Express will certainly work like that, they also anticipate it being a mobile device that you take with you.  The appropriate device for comparison to what you are used to is not the Airport Express, but rather the Airport Extreme.  The Extreme is more traditional, sized for static placement; and has 4 Ethernet ports in addition to wireless.  So, you connect the Extreme to your DSL/Cable modem, connect your printer, and "main" computer hard-wired to the ethernet ports, and the rest of the computers in your house (probably not in your home office) use the wireless.  Because the Express has no external antennas and is so small, I'd like to say its range is limited.  I just bought, last week, a D-Link DIR655.  It sits on the second floor of my home in the corner.  I have extremely strong signals even with my daughter's iPod Touch in the basement--and this is something we did NOT have when we had wireless-G.  The new one is wireless-N, and has three antennas and dual simultaneous bands much like the Extreme.  My router installed in about 5 minutes, without any real issues but the software was bad--kept coming up with error messages that were not real.  It's in and works, and probably won't require much attention.

Best to read the documentation; I do know for certain on the D-Link, Netgear routers that the Ethernet cable you use for connection from Modem-->Router is DIFFERENT that Router-->computer or printer.  They tell you to use the enclosed cable but don't often tell you that it is required.  The difference is one of the cables is straight-through, and the other is a cross-over and are not interchangeable.

The Express is just another way of Apple thinking...they anticipate, for example, you travelling to a hotel room (just one example) where they have a hard-wired internet connection at the desk.  Normally you take your computer and physically connect it.  With the Express, you connect that instead, and now your laptop is wireless in your hotel room, on the balcony, or whatever.

BTW, the Apple routers are pricy.  The Extreme is about $180; technically it does no more than a $99 D-Link on sale this week at OfficeMax:

http://www.officemax.com/catalog/sku.jsp?productId=prod450066&history=fdcsdoxx|prodPage~15^freeText~routers^paramValue~true^refine~1^region~1^param~return_skus^return_skus~Y

BUT, it offers, from what I can see (and I'm sure there are Mac folks that would agree) significantly better software and ease of connection with Mac networks...provided of course, they tell you how to connect it! ;)

« Last Edit: March 30, 2010, 12:37:35 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #35 on: March 30, 2010, 13:52:18 »
Michael and Shaun, thank you -- you are both helping me understand this. And quicker than the geek squad I must add...

It seems my idea was for one static home base (the PC) and that the Extreme would have been better than the Express. Maybe the Apple girl assumed my PC was wireless already -- tried to explain it but my head was spinning from all the Mac stuff. Anyone been in one of those Mac Stores. The happening Place here in Northern California. Anyway. Looks like two choices: go all wireless or get another "router".  I think my PC might be wireless ready -- how would I know for sure?

In either case, the Imac is asking me for a password to my 2wire DSL modem. How the heck to I find that .. tried the usuals but really have no clue (if I even had one)... As you can see I am kind of non-techie...
James
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SteveK

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #36 on: March 30, 2010, 13:59:39 »
One other item you might consider buying at Best Buy is the Belkin transfer cable that allows you to hook your new Mac to the PC and it will automatically find all of your music, documents and files and copy them to the Mac.  It cost under $50 and by loading the supplied software in each machine does this transfer in about 5 minutes.  A lot better than going and trying to transfer each file individually!

w113dude

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #37 on: March 30, 2010, 15:08:20 »
James,

If your teenage daughter is anything like my teenage son she can do this in a blink, this kind of stuff come to them like second nature. :)

mdsalemi

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #38 on: March 30, 2010, 15:16:59 »
Jim,

The password is one provided by your ISP.  2Wire just makes the hardware.  Contact the tech support on whoever supplies your DSL or cable service for support.  Or, check some of the original documentation that came with your DSL and the hardware provided such as the modem.  None of my routers ever had the password set up, and the new one recommends NOT setting up the password.  All it is used for is access for some setup information--once that is done it is likely you'll never use it agaiin. (My last router was a wireless-G.  Paid about $100 for it 3 years ago.  Today, there were dozens of them on eBay for .99 to $10, and NONE had any bids.  It's trash now.  Never had to access the setup except at initial install.)

That being said, if you plan on travelling and need the portability of the the Airport Express, keep it.  If not try to return or exchange it because it isn't what you really need.  You really want the Extreme, or something similar to what I highlighted (such as the DIR655).  The Apple website does a good job of explaining the differences.

And yes, the entire Apple store experience is dreadful unless you are a Gen-X or Gen-Y person that thrives on that sort of uncontrolled chaos.  G-d forbid you should choose to go there on a Saturday!  There's a lot of salespeople around that are like brainwashed acolytes of a bizarre religious cult.  You want to speak with the one or two real technical gurus that the stores have.  The sales people I spoke with were extremely friendly but really knew very little about the details of the hardware and how it works with the particular software I use.

Jim--many PC's are NOT wireless w/o an installed card.  Most LAPTOPS have wireless built in.  Best to go to your original documentation and see what they gave you.  If your PC is more than 2 years old it probably does not have a wireless card installed.  They often have an external antenna.  That's one reason why my PC is connected hard-wire to the router.  The hardwire connections are also faster.  Gigabit ethernet (hardwired) is generally up to 1 gigabit per second data transfer.  The fastest you'll get out of a Wireless-N is up to about 800 megabits per second, but there are a LOT of variables on wireless performance.  If your router will be "permanently" installed, best to use a hard wire.  Let the roving remote devices such as the family laptops, netbooks, iPhone, iPod-Touch etc. access the router by wireless.

In my home, I have the hard wires.  Wife and child use the wireless.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2010, 15:30:01 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #39 on: March 30, 2010, 17:52:29 »
Thanks Mike,

Here is a progress report: First off, I am on the IMac! and it is connecting wirelessly through the Express (which is attached to my DSL). That is the good news. Bad is, once I hooked ethernet from DSL Modem to the Express, the PC is not cooperating. I installed airport utility on it -- but it says it cannot find an apple wireless base station. Since its literally one feet away and working with the Imac, I think my PC is not up to speed. So I could add a card? or hardwire, correct?

I like the idea of hardwiring both the IMac and the PC since they are in the same room, thus the term Computer Room for where I am... So I think I may have to head to Staples (best buy is 30 miles away -- apple store 50) which is a few minutes away. I will look into the DIR655 or comparable. I want N right? I am still not sure how I can hardwire two computers using my DSL Modem. It has only one Ethernet jack?

Appreciate all the help -- makes changing points seem like a walk in the park!
James
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mdsalemi

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #40 on: March 30, 2010, 19:20:10 »
OK Jim, it's like this.  Sounds like your PC has no wireless card.

For the routers, yes you want "N"; and you want a N-Extreme.  It can be the D-Link (just order it, it'll be at your home in a day or two!) or the AirPort Extreme, or any other that you might choose.  That one I pointed to, the DIR-655 has good reviews--I bought it and it's taken me WAY longer to explain all this to you than it did to install mine.

There will be FIVE RJ45 Ethernet connectors or ports on the back of the router.  ONE will be separate from the others and probably marked WAN.  That's for the DSL modem.  The other 4 are just labeled 1-4.  They are for devices such as computers or printers.

The DSL/Cable modem connects via a cable (it will come with the Router) to the Router's WAN port.  Should all be clearly labeled.

The iMac and the PC in your case will connect with cables in your computer room.  That's 2 of the device ports.   If your printer has an ethernet port, use that too.  That's the 3rd port, and you have a spare.

All other devices external to the computer room will need to be "wireless enabled" as most laptops/phones/iPod Touch etc. are, or if you have another, remote and older PC w/o a card, you'll need to get and install a wireless card for that.  Alternatively you can get "wireless USB" sticks, they look like thumb drives.  If you have a USB port free on you computer, just get one of those (about $30) and use that instead of a card.  Check out one made by MediaLink:

http://www.amazon.com/Medialink-Wireless-Adapter-Windows-Compatible/dp/B002RM08RE

The N spec is pretty robust and I bet you can get good reception outside in your backyard.  :)  And of course, throughout the house, too.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2010, 19:25:55 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #41 on: March 30, 2010, 22:01:21 »
Great news!  I am on the couch in the family room surfing the Pagoda world! I ended up explaining my situation to best buy and yet another GenY person sold me on a Linksys N router (on sale for 79). This allowed me to get that Belkin file transfer cable that Steve mentioned. They did not have the D-Link by the way -- anyway, it was a snap to set up and as of now I have wireless throughout the house, but am hardwired in the computer room. I am going to see if I can get them all to the printer wirelessly?

Now to figure out how to transfer the files, especially itunes which I have 100s invested in. Then photos etc. Thanks friends.

Mac is Back in Town!
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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #42 on: March 30, 2010, 22:27:54 »
All the discussion here finally convinced me to buy a Mac so have got myself an iMac 22.5" and a MacBook Pro. about four weeks ago. None of it hard wired to the net and all using wireless both printer and internet connection.  Working fine, operator needs training though.

I then used a Switch-to-Mac Cable (AUD$90)and transferred all the files across relatively simply and now only have to work out how to use all the new programs properly.

It is taking some learning and frustration but will eventually get there.

Garry
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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #43 on: March 31, 2010, 12:06:11 »
Jim,

You probably ended up with the Cisco/Linksys WRT310N.  The main difference between this router (and those similar) and the D-Link I mentioned (and those like it) is the fact that the latter is a dual-band, with its wireless broadcasting over 2 simultaneous frequencies.  Also, it has 3 external antennas (as similar models do) and thus has a greater range.  Since we have these crazy "holes in the ground" in middle America--things we call basements--I needed all the range I could get.  Previous router could not reliably transmit to the basement; the new one's signal is excellent throughout the home.

BestBuy has the Dlink on their website for $99 but I don't think they carry it in the store as you discovered.  They are funny that way.

But, as you discovered, installation is generally a snap when you have all the right parts.

File transfer should not be an issue--you just have to set it and walk away.  I'm sure the purpose-designed Belkin will help you out.

Regarding wireless printing: many printers that offer built-in wireless printing (such as mine) offer it as an "either-or" feature.  ALL access the printer wirelessly, or all access it through a USB or network port; you don't mix them.  Since I have my printer connected to my router's ports, all the computers in the house access the printer wirelessly not through its own wireless feature, but through the router.  My office PC is not hardwired to the printer, but to the router.  The printer is also hardwired to the router.  In the case of PC's, you probably have to install drivers on each PC that might access your printer.  In the case of the Mac's, I think it kind of figures it all out.  As I think I mentioned earlier in this thread, when Peter van Es came to visit here for PUB, his Mac laptop found my printer, found the drivers, and he was printing in less time than it would have taken for any PC owner to download and install the proper drivers.

Good luck!
« Last Edit: March 31, 2010, 12:13:36 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #44 on: March 31, 2010, 22:46:14 »
Congrats James & Garry.

Garry the coolest thing about the Pro is the 1,2,3, &4 finger trackpad functions.  Swiping up, down, left & right makes navigating very pleasant.   If you want the break down let us know.   

As far as Apple stores, this Gen Y'r has never set foot in one.  Actually I try to refrain from electronic stores altogether.   Online is where it's at for my electronic needs.   Cheaper, easier, and faster.  Apple online and also the Apple refurb store is nice.

Like Mike said, just because it says Apple doesn't always make it better.   A simple router for 1/2 the price will work just as well.   

A site that does a decent job of Mac reviews is:  http://www.macintouch.com/reviews/

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #45 on: April 01, 2010, 13:56:23 »
I don't understand why you guys don't like the Mac store, I just push the little squirts away and play with all the great toys. (I really don't push them, they just seem to move when they see me standing by ;D)

I was there about a month ago and walked out with the new "Magic Mouse".  Not sure it's really worth the money, but really fun and supper efficient to use.  (same deal as the touch plate on the Pro, just run your fingers over it to roll pages or blow up the script)  I guess thats why they call it magic!

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #46 on: November 18, 2011, 21:19:13 »
I revived this discussion, because I finally went and bought a Mac.  No, not new--but a used Mac Pro Tower.

Now that I finished the Pagoda book, of course, I buy the proper tools.  Really, the PC was and is pushed too far.

The Mac is several years old; it has 2 x dual core 3 GHZ Xeon Processors, and 8 MB of Ram.
For photos and layouts, there is no screen too big, and no disk r/w too fast.  Therefore, ordered and waiting for delivery are parts to customize.

240 GB Solid State hard drive, for the Lion OS-X operating system and applications.  This will assure fast boot up; fast start up of apps, and fast closure as well.
1 TB enterprise class hard drive--for files
27" Apple Cinema display.  This would have allowed me to view a 2-page spread at about actual size.

Of course I have to wait for all this stuff to arrive, and then "build it all".  But it sure looks easier so far than the water pump I did in July on the Pagoda.
Michael Salemi
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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #47 on: November 18, 2011, 23:07:58 »
Congratulations Mike. I have been a Mac "person" for many years. I used be an IT manager at Boeing (Unix ws and 100s of PCs) and when I retired I didn't want to have that headache any more:-) I recently bought a 27" iMac and I know you will be very happy with that display. Hope that was a typo "8mb of memory". Lion need's a minimum of 2 gb.

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #48 on: November 18, 2011, 23:47:16 »
Mike,

As Chan (Dash 808) said, welcome to the dark side ;)
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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #49 on: November 19, 2011, 21:28:16 »
Well, I'm not there yet!

Well, MOST of the parts have arrived.  The one missing part is the keyboard, to arrive on Monday.  Then I'll have all the parts ready to put this baby together.

My daughter borrowed the OS-X Lion USB key to install on her MacBook Pro, and that went well.

One last part I need to get is--believe it or not--a Windows 7 OEM disk.  Though most of my software comes in dual versions, there is still some thing I have that are PC only.  There will be one drive in the Mac Pro Tower that will be a Windows 7-only drive, where I can run these programs and others as I need to.

I'll post the results as I make them here.
Michael Salemi
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Cees Klumper

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #50 on: November 19, 2011, 23:32:45 »
FWIW, I bought an IPAD this week, it arrived, worked fine for a day, then started to erratically shut itself off/reboot in the middle of any operation - constantly. When I searched for possible solutions, the Google search ('IPAD erratically turning off") returned 288 million (!) hits, and, after having tried the user manual fixes, a review of various forum discussions convinced me to make use of the 'return it within 14 days and get your money back' Apple deal. It is apparently some hardware issue but it baffles me how Apple can afford to ship so many defective units.
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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #51 on: November 21, 2011, 13:27:29 »
One last part I need to get is--believe it or not--a Windows 7 OEM disk.  Though most of my software comes in dual versions, there is still some thing I have that are PC only.  There will be one drive in the Mac Pro Tower that will be a Windows 7-only drive, where I can run these programs and others as I need to.

Mike,

Congrats. I'm sure you have 8GB of memory...

Secondly, buy 2x 2TB Sata-3 drives to install into the two remaining drive slots. Then make them into a logical raid-1 disk (OS X can do that for you). That way, if one of them fails -- as they will, you don't lose anything. It's what I did and it makes you feel much more secure.

Thirdly, buy a large external Firewire or USB drive (2TB minimum) and use it as a Time Machine disk to make backups onto.

Fourthly, before messing with Bootcamp, download Virtualbox... https://www.virtualbox.org/. It is free, Open Source software, and very reliable. Try to install Windows 7 on that (it take a little sorting out) but then you can runs Windows applications right from your OS X environment, either in a Win7 window, Full Screen, or in Seamless Window mode (as if they are running on OS X). Much easier to switch between apps, and you can share OS X drives in Win 7. Best thing: no need to partition drives etc.

Peter

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mdsalemi

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #52 on: November 22, 2011, 11:24:37 »
Yes, indeed--it is 8 GB of memory, not 8 MB.  That will be a good starting point, will probably upgrade later.  Biggest factors for my work are hard drive access speed and cache, and main memory.  Video board isn't that relevant, and neither is processor speed--those are things for "gamers".

The 2 x 2TB SATA drive suggestion is solid, and sound, but something for the future.  The 2TB drives in enterprise class are nearly $300 each at the moment, which would add a hefty chunk to my final "assembly cost".  Will file that for future reference.  The RAID feature is nice, though believe it or not I've never had a hard drive failure--usually because I buy drives that are robust and not state of the art, and don't keep them near to their MTBF rating.  It is a program that has worked for about 25 years...

2TB is, at the moment, is more storage space than I can envision.  Even the single 1 TB drive I bought, absent the OS and Apps, will only be about 20% full with everything I have.  Growth is slow...

I do have 2 external drives for backup, from the Pagoda Book.  :)  Not the largest or fastest [now] but not at the end of their useful life either.

The virtual box link was interesting, and I'll investigate further.  Again, sound advice.  From what I've seen of Bootcamp it looks a lot simpler than virtual box, but that's just an instant assessment, not necessariliy factual.  Problem is I have to find bootcamp--it is supposed to be in the utilities folder of OS-X but did not show up on my daughter's update.  Hmmm.

The reason for the bootcamp was other sound advice I received--"don't run parallels, or run any Windows apps in a virtual machine or under OS-X.  Keep it all separate and distinct, and keep it all on a separate bootable hard drive."  No bad consequences were offered or suggested but the separation makes some kind of sense.

I'll be putting most of the Mac together today, as the final part arrived yesterday--the keyboard!  I'm really curious to see how fast that SSD drive will be!
Michael Salemi
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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #53 on: November 22, 2011, 18:12:29 »
...and so the first problem shows up: an incompatibility between the monitor (Apple Cinema Display 27" LED) and the Mac Pro.

The display adapter in the Mac Pro utilizes something called a DVI connector; two of them, actually, as it supports 2 monitors.
The display itself has a real short cable, and clearly is designed for use with a laptop...with a mini-DV connector.

...and therein lies my first issue.  Why would you buy a laptop, and then a [gargantuan display] for it?  Does not make intuitive sense to me.  At least, if you make a fabulous monitor, you should have some built in backward compatibility to other display models?

A call to the Apple store, and there is a $125 connector that apparently will solve the problem.  We'll see--but still, I might need extension cords as the cable from the monitor is really designed to have a Mac Book sitting right in front of it.  I don't know if I can get the monitor and tower close enough in their real world installation.

Still waiting to power it all up!
Michael Salemi
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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #54 on: November 22, 2011, 18:54:16 »
Mike,
what kind of connector do you need?
DVI (F) to mini-DVD(M)? Be careful, they come in all kinds of combinations.
One from Apple only costs $19: http://store.apple.com/us/product/M9321G/B
Extension cables for either one should not be a problem
Alfred
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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #55 on: November 22, 2011, 19:47:25 »
The Mac itself has a DVI female connector (2 of them).  I believe it is digital.
The monitor has a Mini-DV, and I suspect it is male.
Apple has already sent, overnight and gratis, the proper connector box.  This is it:
http://store.apple.com/us/product/H5236ZM/A
Overnight and free?  That's customer service par excellence...but I did just buy a whoop-a** large monitor from them upon their recommendation...

Lo and behold, my PC monitor has both mini-DV out (but no cable) but it is connected to the PC with a DVI cable.  So, I was able to borrow that at the expense of my PC, and at least get the SSD installed with the new Lion OS successfully.  I'll wait for more setup when that part comes tomorrow.
Michael Salemi
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Peter van Es

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #56 on: November 22, 2011, 19:54:05 »
The problem is that the Cinema display comes with a Mini-Displayport cable... it expects to be inserted in a laptop with the same, or a video card in your MacPro with a suitable video card...

Best bet (what I did) buy a faster video card with a Mini Displayport... http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC742ZM/A?fnode=MTY1NDA5OQ but make sure that the card works in your Mac Pro... I needed to get one of these: http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC743ZM/A?fnode=MTY1NDA5OQ

Note: Mini-Displayport is not the same as Mini DVI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini_DisplayPort



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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #57 on: November 22, 2011, 19:55:07 »
Apple has already sent, overnight and gratis, the proper connector box.  This is it:

Wow, impressive!

Regrettably it appears that box (from the specs) does not fully support the massive 2560x1440 screen resolution which I am enjoying here and which makes the $999 of the Cinema Display worth paying for.

Peter
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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #58 on: November 22, 2011, 20:25:46 »
I was one short step away today from buying the Apple-version ATI Radeon HD 5770 adapter today, for about $250.  However, you know the old story about doing too many things at once...I had not even powered the darn thing up yet!  The one thing that stopped me was a couple of reviews that said it is "about the same as the X1900" and the other said, "WOW!  This is so cool!  After tech support from Apple and MacSales-OWC, I was finally able to get my new HD5770 working with my 2007 Mac Pro Tower!"

I suppose I might be able to sell this Kanex converter, AND the existing ATI Radeon X1900, and the proceeds might significantly defray the cost of the new HD 5770.  Once it is all up and running, I'll be there.

Funny--the same basic-architecture HD5770 for a PC is about half the cost of the proprietary Mac/Apple version.
Michael Salemi
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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #59 on: November 22, 2011, 20:47:26 »
Well, if you'd like to save $200 and appreciate hacking.... http://www.3dot5.net/blog/pc-radeon-5770-and-5870-finally-work-in-mac-pro/
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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #60 on: November 26, 2011, 02:01:43 »
Making serious progress.  Ordered and received the Apple AMD/ATI Radeon 5770 video card. It has the proper mini Displayport connector.  It works fine in this older Mac Pro tower, at full resolution with the 27" Cinema Display.  So now the old hardware goes on eBay for recycling.  Lots more setup and configuration to do, more software to install, too.  Bootup from power off is in seconds due to the SSD drive.  I'm a bit away from retiring the PC yet, but it has taken about 6 hours today to get about 50% through a security scan.  Goodness knows i will not miss that!
Michael Salemi
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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #61 on: April 10, 2012, 12:21:54 »
Well, the "new" Macintosh has been up and running now for a few months.  I also have had the opportunity or reason, to go back on occasion, to Windows--both XP and Win7.

I can tell you with certainty that the robustness of the MacOS is simply not comparable.  It doesn't crash, period.  It actually does what it is supposed to do!  Often, nearly everything is running at the same time, w/o any conflicts or issues.

There's a lot of nonsense about the Apple acolytes, but realistically few go into the more technical aspects of just how well the operating system works.  I'm pretty astounded.
Michael Salemi
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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #62 on: April 10, 2012, 12:48:16 »
After a career using PCs and designing, building, and selling products that worked with PCs, I switched to a Mac about 2 years ago.  It's like I had spent my life banging my head against a wall, and suddenly realized I didn't need to do it anymore.  For all those still using Windows, all I can say is that you don't need to put up with it any longer.  It doesn't have to be that way.

The Mac's aren't prefect by any means, but they are SO much better than Windows in terms of organization, consistency, predictability, and reliability.  The fundamental difference is that with the Mac when you try something new, 98% of the time it works correctly the first time as expected.  With Windows, you need to screw up the courage to try something new, knowing darn well that you have a 60% to 80% chance that it won't work.  Best case you will be in for a struggle to get it to work, and worst case you will take out your whole system.  I think Windows is a net drain on human productivity.  Just say No.

And for those who have some lingering apps that are windows only (like me), buy VMWare Fusion for $80.  Connect it to your existing Windows machine, and it will ingest all its contents and let you run your legacy windows junk side-by-side with your mac apps.  No rebooting.  Everything runs side by side at the same time.  This was the key that enabled me to finally dump windows.

Free yourself now!
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Ulf

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #63 on: April 10, 2012, 18:42:05 »
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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #64 on: April 10, 2012, 19:08:29 »
Hello Peter,"twistedtree". I couldn't agree with you more, read my post #47 in this thread:-) I do remember a time back in the late 90s when a buddy of mine at work and I were talking about Apple and maybe we should buy some shares in the company. They were trading in the mid teens at the time. We both were really "Mac Guys" but didn't hold out much hope for the company so we didn't buy any. Big mistake for sure:-(

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #65 on: April 10, 2012, 21:07:52 »
Well, as I stated somewhere back a ways, I have gone in and out of Mac products over the generations -- but now am very hooked. Apple products are simply outstanding (a bit like Mercedes automobiles).... And 49er, like you I had and sold my early AAPL when they were lagging (25 or so)... I have since bought some back but at a much (much) higher premium. Still happy as a clam for the latest run...

As an aside, nice desktop John! My Imac is smartly adorned as well. Wonder how many of us have a Pagoda as their Wallpaper?
James
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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #66 on: April 10, 2012, 21:39:12 »
There were two big "kicks" that Apple made, like afterburners on a fighter jet...

First was dumping the proprietary Motorola microprocessor architecture and going with Intel a few years back.  Yes that is why most Apple hardware, properly configured can run Windows.
Second was a thoroughly clean sheet writing of the operating system in Unix, rather than relying on stuff written years ago and just patching it (that would be Windows...)

In addition to these items, they run an orderly house, a tight ship.  I compare it to a gated community where everyone follows the rules, and Windows kind of a wild west town with a good part of town, and "the other side of tracks".  Mac OSX is order; Windows is entropy; chaos.

The foundations of Windows--even the latest--are built on quicksand.  Each time I run a windows machine the system has to update for viruses, the disk just keeps whirring and whirring and you can't do a darn thing while it is.  I have no idea why sometimes one mouse click will send the hard drive into orbit for minutes.  It's done this on every Windows machine I've ever used.
The foundations of Apple OS-X are solidly built into bedrock.  Quicker, cleaner, probably because it is more efficient.

I'm certainly glad I made the move...

Once you make the move and live with it for a while, you can see.  Yeah, the hardware is a bit pricey but it too has a build quality untouched by anyone.  The amount of time I save over screwing around with Windows each day is astounding.
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2022 Ford Escape Hybrid
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid

49er

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #67 on: April 10, 2012, 21:59:42 »
Actually Michael, Apple dropped the Motorola chip in favor of IBM's "Power PC" chip in the late 90's. It was just a matter of time before Apple then eventually switched over to Intel. By the way, my first Mac was an "SE", 128k memory and a 20Mb HD. Along with a 8" BW built in screen! They sure have come a long way since then.

John
1969 280SL 003820
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Original Owner, Purchased September 18, 1968
4 speed manual, PS. 77217 miles
7280 miles since awoken from her 20+ yr "nap" in 2010

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #68 on: April 10, 2012, 22:02:08 »
As an aside, nice desktop John! My Imac is smartly adorned as well. Wonder how many of us have a Pagoda as their Wallpaper?

 Nice desktop James! You guys sure live in beautiful part of our state! Matches your car:-) Get your seat back yet?

John
1969 280SL 003820
Un Restored, All Original, including the paint
Original Owner, Purchased September 18, 1968
4 speed manual, PS. 77217 miles
7280 miles since awoken from her 20+ yr "nap" in 2010

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #69 on: April 10, 2012, 22:52:26 »

Get your seat back yet?

John


Still Waiting......

James
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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #70 on: April 10, 2012, 23:53:46 »
Hey 49er,  an SE, huh?   That does go back a ways.   Mine was a straight 128k that I bought during the first 100 days after release in 1984.   I wanted one so bad !!!   My wife (at the time:D) was pissed at me - said only big business firms and film studios had "puters".       Anyway, I bought one and upgraded memory etc, whenever stuff came available - and lugged it and the Imagewriter printer, all over the world on location.     WOW - that was about 28 years ago !!     And I have an absolutely pristine copy of the very first issue of Mac World........... I miss Steve . . his amazing vision and energy.

Cheers, Hank

mdsalemi

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #71 on: April 11, 2012, 12:29:26 »
Actually Michael, Apple dropped the Motorola chip in favor of IBM's "Power PC" chip in the late 90's. It was just a matter of time before Apple then eventually switched over to Intel. By the way, my first Mac was an "SE", 128k memory and a 20Mb HD. Along with a 8" BW built in screen! They sure have come a long way since then.

John

John, I was forced to use early Mac (we were given a room full of them at graduate school in 1984 just after release) and they were horrible.  They drove us absolutely MAD!  Later, when the Macintosh II and IIfX came out, there was a lot of proprietary software, as well as other software otherwise unavailable on PC platforms that served the changing world of graphic design and prepress work; that was the business I was in.  They were extremely expensive (I remember paying about $5k in the early 1990's for a properly equipped IIfX system) and were not particularly fast or robust--but they ran the layout software, front end imagesetter software, graphics editing, and PostScript--something PC's were slow to do.  I had no choice: I used them--the Macs--but hated every moment!  The company I worked for did too, and implemented PostScript interpreters on IBM PS/2's running AIX UNIX. It was rock solid.  The Macintosh didn't cut it in terms of OS robustness nor in hardware quality at the time.

The PowerPC, and derivatives lasted for 12 years at Apple, but it really was not until they "went Intel", in my opinion, that things started taking off for the best.  I looked at Macs over the years for my personal use (while using them at professional client sites) and always begged off on them.  System crashes on early Macs, particularly when doing this high-end graphics stuff, were regular, with lots of loss of work and time.  My Mac today, even though the hardware is from 2006 with the latest OS, has not crashed at all.   One or two programs has, but it no longer "takes down the computer" in the process.  And, the virus stuff is virtually nonexistent.

I'm a pretty happy camper in Mac land.
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2022 Ford Escape Hybrid
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #72 on: April 11, 2012, 12:43:57 »
OK, I have the fess up.  When I opened my Mac this morning, all I got was a black screen and the psychedelic wheel.  I had to power cycle and reboot.  Fortunately such behavior is a rare occurrence, but it does happen.
Peter Hayden
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1970 MB 280SL
2011 BMW 550xi

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #73 on: April 11, 2012, 14:50:59 »
Peter, dump your hard drive, and go to an SSD.  You'll never look back.
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2022 Ford Escape Hybrid
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid

twistedtree

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #74 on: April 11, 2012, 23:16:22 »
Peter, dump your hard drive, and go to an SSD.  You'll never look back.

Still too small and too expensive for my needs.  I've got 500GB currently and it's 90% full.  Will likely move to 1TB in the next 6 months or so.  Flash is still 5x to 10x the cost of spinning media, but even then I'd be all over it if I had lower storage needs.
Peter Hayden
1964 MB 230SL
1970 MB 280SL
2011 BMW 550xi

49er

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #75 on: May 02, 2012, 23:00:33 »
 Those of you that have the Apple iMac with the SD card reader, don't do what I did. I inserted (with out looking) an SD card in the DVD slot which is directly above the SD slot! It took a bit of head scratching but I fashioned a "hook" out of a thin piece of wire and pulled out the SD Card. No damage done to either the card or the DVD RW device. Whew! Note to Apple engineers.... Slots should be on opposite sides of machine:-)

John
1969 280SL 003820
Un Restored, All Original, including the paint
Original Owner, Purchased September 18, 1968
4 speed manual, PS. 77217 miles
7280 miles since awoken from her 20+ yr "nap" in 2010

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #76 on: May 03, 2012, 22:56:52 »
I am not even sure I could move if I wanted to.

I have been a PC user since they were invented and am a typical teckie.  I can't do most things I want to on a mac, My company VPN wont work, niether does Sage (i believe), I cant run my (propper) VOIP system on a mac (I have a Linux system for this so not Windoze), niether would my email server.  Since most things I do use a computer for wont work on a mac, I have tended to stay away.

I got an IPAD2 for Christmas and I am sorry to say it bored me!  I gave it away to the brother in law who seems to keep it in a cupboard!!

Maybe some other day.

Mark

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #77 on: May 04, 2012, 17:32:43 »
I am not even sure I could move if I wanted to.

I have been a PC user since they were invented and am a typical teckie.  I can't do most things I want to on a mac, My company VPN wont work, niether does Sage (i believe), I cant run my (propper) VOIP system on a mac (I have a Linux system for this so not Windoze), niether would my email server.  Since most things I do use a computer for wont work on a mac, I have tended to stay away.

I got an IPAD2 for Christmas and I am sorry to say it bored me!  I gave it away to the brother in law who seems to keep it in a cupboard!!

Maybe some other day.

Mark

Mark--

I'm no expert, but would offer that some things you say are probably just not correct.

Access to email is pretty universal on a Mac.  You can use web-based mail; IMAP or POP3, right out of the box.  While not as universally deployed in corporations as PCs, I'm sure there might be some other protocols implemented I just don't know about.  If your email needs are so esoteric that web, POP or IMAP won't work, well one day you might have problems with a Win based system too.
VOIP?  There certainly are plenty of VOIP applications for Macs.  Maybe they are not the ones you are familiar with, but there are plenty.
Most mainstream independent applications are available in both Mac and PC versions, more now than ever before.  Microsoft Office; Adobe Products; plenty of browsers.  Yes, there are plenty of legacy applications not working on a Mac, and many engineering applications I'm told, too.  But mainstream usage of a desktop computer--for word processing, design, photo work, music, video, and web browsing is very universal today.
Sure, there are plenty of applications (such as Sage's ACT!) that are legacy and not developed for multiple platforms.  There is a program called Parallels, and others like it that run many (there are probably some that won't work) Windows applications.  My own Macintosh has a separate hard drive that will, if I choose, boot up to a clean copy of Windows7.  So, for those times when I have to run a Windows program, I have a way to do it.  I set this up and have not used it, but it is there.

I moved to the Macintosh because I was tired of system crashes, constant updates that bogged down the system, virus issues. etc.  I bought a 6-year old Mac, reconfigured it with a few modern tweaks, and it is solid as a rock.  Even when I play with Windows on another machine I'm reminded of why I switched.

I've used both PC's and Macs since day one of each.  For many years, PC's were it for me.  Not any more. If nothing you do is available on a Mac, then stick with PCs.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2012, 19:27:22 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2022 Ford Escape Hybrid
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid

Markbhai

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #78 on: May 04, 2012, 21:48:44 »
Hi Michael.

I should probably have explained better, the Email and VOIP I refer to are my 'semi' commercial servers I use.  The VOIP system hosts 20 phones and handles inbound call queues etc as well as voice recording facilities...all handled from a Pentium 2 PC.

I do agree that Windows has a terrible habit of crashing if you let the PC get bogged down, but love the fact that everyting I want to do I can do.  Its true all of the main stream stuff is available but there are too many things I just cant do on a Mac.

I would love to change over, but the support isn't there yet.

M

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #79 on: May 04, 2012, 23:42:10 »
Hi Michael.

I should probably have explained better, the Email and VOIP I refer to are my 'semi' commercial servers I use.  The VOIP system hosts 20 phones and handles inbound call queues etc as well as voice recording facilities...all handled from a Pentium 2 PC.

I do agree that Windows has a terrible habit of crashing if you let the PC get bogged down, but love the fact that everyting I want to do I can do.  Its true all of the main stream stuff is available but there are too many things I just cant do on a Mac.

I would love to change over, but the support isn't there yet.

M

I am laughing now.  You have a serious legacy system there!  The Mac equivalent of a pentium 2 was abandoned eons ago.  I don't think any supported windows operating system is even supported on that hardware.
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2022 Ford Escape Hybrid
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid

twistedtree

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #80 on: May 05, 2012, 01:18:13 »
For what it's worth, the whole legacy windows app thing is what kept me from switching until recently.  VMWare was the key for me.  It simply sucked the brains out of my PC into a virtual PC running on the Mac.  I have about a 1/2 dozen windows-only apps that I still run this way.  ArcGIS, Autocad, Visio, and Visual Basic and other compilers for tools I've written over the years to name a few.  It works very well and doesn't require reboots like parallels or other dual boot solutions - everything runs at the same time.  The net result is that I now only have to suffer through windows when absolutely necessary, and I can do it without owning another computer dedicated to the task.
Peter Hayden
1964 MB 230SL
1970 MB 280SL
2011 BMW 550xi

mdsalemi

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #81 on: May 05, 2012, 13:32:57 »
Mark's situation is a bit unique.  Pentium IIs are ancient; you quite literally cannot even give these machines away.  They were only made for 2 years (1997-1999).  That does not make them bad at all--he's running some clearly specific legacy applications that work well.  If they work well on an inexpensive machine there is NO reason to change.  The Windows that ran well on them--(relatively speaking) was Windows 98 and XP.  Neither are supported any longer. 

While I am not an early adopter that has to have the absolute latest and greatest and fastest (read that: most expensive) there is something to be said, for operations and security, to running at least supported software and operating systems.  When I left the printing equipment business years ago, I had many leftover minicomputer and IBM PS/2 parts, both relatively useless in the mainstream.  Eventually I found some dealers supplying niche markets of some ATM's and older CAT scan machines that used the parts, and was able to eventually get rid of it all.  Warehouse was broom-clean when I was done.

We all talk about security issues in Windows--but Microsoft's latest windows version is actually pretty secure, and their MSE (Microsoft Security Essentials) that is free runs relatively silently, quietly, and unobtrusively in the background compared to MacAfee or Symantec on a Vista or XP based machine.  But the biggest Windows headache is all these ancient (in age and security) legacy systems out there that people don't give up. It's Microsoft's own fault for charging so much for an update.  The people that went from XP to Vista, for example, really felt screwed.  So, you would have to allow them a little hesitancy when moving from Vista to Win7, and paying $125 to do so.  Screw me once, shame on you.  Screw me twice, shame on me.  Apple charges only a nominal fee for a system upgrade with no complex licensing scheme.  I offered my OSX Lion upgrade stick to my neighbor, who declined.  So, failure to update is not just for Windows users...it is human nature.

Peter, what VMWare product are you using?  I assume you have one that runs on your Macintosh to allow you to run a Windows based program.  I went to the VMware website, and couldn't understand most of it...tell me the product and I'll research it for an upcoming project I have a need for, running Sage ACT on my Mac...
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2022 Ford Escape Hybrid
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid

twistedtree

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #82 on: May 05, 2012, 17:48:28 »
Michael,

The  VMware product that runs on a Mac is called Fusion.  It's available for free for 30 days, and a permanent license is about $80.

My only real complaint with it is that it's a CPU pig even when sitting idle, and battery life goes to hell real fast.  The solution is to "suspend" the virtual PC when not in use.  It's the moral equivalent to hibernating and takes well under a minute to do.
Peter Hayden
1964 MB 230SL
1970 MB 280SL
2011 BMW 550xi

mdsalemi

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Re: PC vs. Mac
« Reply #83 on: May 05, 2012, 18:23:28 »
Thanks--I'll check it out.  I'm tethered to 110VAC and don't use batteries in my Mac (not a laptop) so maybe that won't be an issue.
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2022 Ford Escape Hybrid
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid