The Curse of the Pagoda Doors

[Tomnistuff]

For the first two weeks of a recent month-long trip to Portugal a lot of things went wrong for me, leading me to claim to be a victim of a "Lisbon Curse".

Now that I'm at home and finishing up my restoration, I find that my curse has disguised itself, changed its name and re-attacked me.  It's now the Curse of the Pagoda Doors.

In about the last month, the curse has crossed the Atlantic and manifested itself as "stiff door seals", "shrunken door handle pads" and now "a non-functional door lock".

To me, the door latches are so complex that I don't even understand the basics of the fiddly little levers and how they do what they do that relates to the latching and locking of the door.  I think my 1966 230SL has type 1 door latches, whatever those are.  Bud's has used latches that look exactly like mine.

After reading (but not necessarily understanding) what most of the door latch and lock posts have to say, I have pretty much concluded that I will have to very carefully disassemble if possible, the door handles, tumbler systems and door latch assemblies with lots and lots of notes and photos.  Maybe I can reverse engineer the system and fix it.  Otherwise, I'll have to buy at least one used latch and take the two handle systems to a locksmith to replace the little fiddly pieces that I have concluded are broken in the tumblers.  So much for getting the car on the road before putting it away for the Quebec winter.

Does anyone know a good exorcist?  Does anyone have a spring like my missing one?  Does a door latch primer or manual exist?  Is there a good guide for overhauling the tumblers?  Does anyone want to buy a car?

Tom Kizer

[Jordan]

Sorry to hear about your frustrations trying to move forward.  I know what that is like.  Can't help with the spring or the exorcism but the door handles and locks are pretty easy to take apart and repair, provided you aren't missing anything.  Lots of threads on it such as this one.  https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=26907.0

[Tomnistuff]

Hi Marcus.  Sorry for the delayed response.  I've been studying your response, doing research to find wafers (spades) and repairing what I think I can while waiting for parts.

I've ordered door handle pads from Mr.Fiat and striker shims from one of my local MB dealers. I've found wafers, but in doing so, realize that I shouldn't need them for two reasons.  Firstly, the source sells only to locksmiths internationally, so any decent auto locksmith should be able to fix and re-key my locks if necessary.  Secondly, it should not be necessary for the following reason.  Using a spring assortment from Canadian Tire to get the right spring steel material, I straightened a small spring with the right wire diameter and rewound it to make a mirror image of the spring on the passenger side.  After installing it on the driver's latch, it works perfectly, allowing me to lock and unlock the driver's door from the inside, after tricking the little latch tab to make the latch believe that the driver's door is closed. In fact, the latch is not even installed.  I removed it for problem diagnosis.

Maybe what i'm describing next is as it is supposed to be, but my passenger door will lock from the inside even with the door open without tricking the small tab in the striker receptacle.  However the driver's door must be closed against the striker to lock from the inside.  I must have misunderstood Alfred's explanation about the inside lock button function.  I thought both door inside locks functioned the same to prevent lockout.  Oops!  Alfred said it but I missed it.  He specifically said the driver's door must be closed to lock the door from the inside.  Sorry, Alfred.  You were right as usual.  I should read more attentively.

Regarding the wafers,  I was sure I had one of more broken wafers because my door key only worked on the passenger side, and even then, not well without jiggling.

It turns out that I confused my door keys with the two keys from my new fuel cap.  When I realized the confusion, I went inside for my other key ring and found the door keys.  The door locks work OK with the right keys.

At this point, I'm waiting for the door handle pads and the striker shims.  The pads are supposed to come from Atlanta, Georgia and the striker shims from Stuttgart.  Additionally, there are rumors of a postal strike coming here in Quebec, so I'll be thankful, be patient and think about the people who will be victims of Hurricane Florence.

Winter is almost here and I've got all winter to finish the car in a heated garage,so I'm blessed.

Thanks for your help, including the links to the other threads.

Tom Kizer
Levis, Quebec, Canada

[Jordan]

Well at least it turned out to be something relatively simple.  I've done that myself, trying to use the door key to unlock the gas cap and vise versa.  I keep telling myself when I do this that I should at least mark one of the keys, but then I'll just forget if I marked it for the doors or gas cap. Oh well.

[114015]

I've done that myself, trying to use the door key to unlock the gas cap and vise versa.

Yes, Marcus,
That's the correct way it is supposed to be.
According to and fully in line with the provisions on the data card.
One key locks and unlocks the doors _and_ gas cap. The square (YMOS) key with the key number starting with "T" (T = Türen und Tank, doors and tank).
So, that should work like a no brainer.
If not something has been un"original"ized on your car ....
Eeek  ?


Achim

('64 Pagoda with three keys on the keychain, not five)

[Jordan]

Yes, Marcus,
That's the correct way it is supposed to be.
According to and fully in line with the provisions on the data card.
One key locks and unlocks the doors _and_ gas cap. The square (YMOS) key with the key number starting with "T" (T = Türen und Tank, doors and tank).
So, that should work like a no brainer.
If not something has been un"original"ized on your car ....
Eeek  ?


Achim

('64 Pagoda with three keys on the keychain, not five)

You are correct of course Achim.  The gas cap I purchased about 5 years ago and it has a different key from the doors.  I guess I could always rekey the gas cap but then I wouldn't be in this quandary every time I filled up or locked the doors.  Must keep brain exercised. Must keep brain exercised. 

[Tomnistuff]

I just passed one very satisfying afternoon wrestling with the Curse of the Pagoda Doors.

My homemade spring that is a mirror image of the passenger door spring is still working perfectly after installing it on the door yesterday.  It still opens, closes, locks and unlocks perfectly from the inside.  Today I worked on the driver's door handle. 

Marcus, you convinced me that I should not fear the curse and that I should disassemble the door handle and lock.  I photographed every step and took notes during the process.  The only thing I was afraid to do was un-stake the springs and remove the wafers, especially since none were broken and all were relatively free-moving.  I flushed them with electronic cleaner (I didn't have Brake Clean) and lubricated step-by-step with MotoMaster Graphite Lube as I reassembled the lock assembly. The handle and lock assembly feels like it's brand-new.  Tomorrow, I'm going to assemble it on the car and verify full function.  Then when I receive the handle pads (after Florence, probably) I'll finish the assembly of the doors and move on to getting the car ready to drive.  Hopefully snow is not goint to arrive too soon.

Thanks for all your advice.  That goes for all of you.

Tom Kizer
Levis, Quebec, Canada

[Pawel66]

Tom, I was reading this thread thrilled and I was your silent supporter - keeping my fingers crossed that you overcome the curse. I am very happy to read that you fear the curse no more.

Please note I refrained from semi-funny pieces of advise, such as: hang garlic on the handle or study Harry Potter carefully.

But as for lubricating the tumbler area - not knowing the particualr product you used - it is best to use, in reasonable quantities, lubricants that do not attract dust, specifically formulated for this purpose.

[Tomnistuff]

Hi Pawel,

After having cleaned the handle and lock with the electronic cleaner equivalent of Brake Kleen followed by brass brushing where necessary (I guess I could have boiled it in parts cleaner), I wanted lubricants that would work well but would not take a week to clean off the next time.

I chose the Canadian Tire store brand "MotoMaster Graphite Lube".  It sprays on wet and black and dries in about 10 seconds leaving a coat of flat black carbon.  Overspray cleans up with alcohol on a paper towel.  On the can they claim, "MotoMaster Graphite Lube forms an effective dry lubricant that does not collect dirt or grime." 

I suspect any spray graphite lubricant will be fine.  Some even claim they're for locks.

By the way, apparently nobody has "shrunken" door handle pads after 50-odd years.  I got no responses.  Here is a photo of the hole in one of my doors.

Also here is the homemade left door spring (silver and oily) that I made by mirror imaging the spring from the right door (Yellow CAD).

Tom Kizer

[Pawel66]

Indeed looks like it is a proper lubricant - others will find it while looking for advise.

I think the little spring you made is a masterpiece!

As for the shrunk pads - this is explained by the curse (that is now undone), so we understand what happened. It will help others to identify the root cause of similar issue when they read the thread.

[Tomnistuff]

For the latch assembly and window lifter parts, I used spray white lithium grease, not graphite.  It's parts are larger, deal with stronger forces, are easier to clean and are less likely to be affected by dirty grease.  I wasn't clear in my previous post.

Tom Kizer

[Tomnistuff]

IT'S ALIVE !  The Curse of the Pagoda Doors is back.

I waited about two weeks for my two 2 mm thick door striker shims (A1007230211 AUSGLEICPLATTE or balancing plates or adjusting plates) to arrive after ordering them from Germany through my local Mercedes-Benz Dealership parts department.  I based my order on my personally made copy of the EPC for my 230SL using my vin, which identified them as 2 mm thick.  When I had access to the EPC, I loaded my vin into it and meticulously saved an image of every exploded view page and parts list page for my car in case I lost access to the EPC.  I did.

Parts arrival result:  The two shims are black instead of the original silver color (no big deal), 1 mm thick instead of the needed and EPC specified 2 mm thick (bigger deal), and have a bolt spacing of 55 mm instead of the original 48 mm (even bigger deal).  Although the parts are different, at least the part number was the same (JOKE, but true).

A day or so later, I received my new reproduction door handle rubber pads from MrFiat.  The door handle pads were reproduced so well that even the 50 year old pad shrinkage was reproduced. JOKE!  They truly are the same size as the original ones that I took off, but I suspect that they were made to a dimensional blueprint instead of just copying something off of a car.  The identifying numbers and mold marks are different or are missing.  It is true, however, that the rubber pads are no better at covering the holes in the door than were the ones I took off.  I still don't understand why the inadequate hole coverage was never noticed by me during my years of ownership before I started the restoration.  The door holes cannot have changed.  The new paint would have made the hole theoretically smaller, not larger.

At any rate, my Curse is back and my pet peeves of parts list errors and design changes in the absence of part number changes in the auto industry is working overtime on my bad attitude.  I sometimes think that the worst parts supplier for Mercedes Pagodas is Mercedes themselves.  I have personally experienced problems with new Mercedes supplied parts several times.

Anyway, I'll just have to find a way to fix the problems myself with the handle pads and the striker shims.  It will just be more work but at least I will have only myself to blame if it doesn't work.

I'm going to beat the Curse of the Pagoda Doors if I live long enough.

I'll keep this thread going until I beat the Curse or until the server runs out of memory or until I die.

Tom Kizer

[66andBlue]

Tom,
there are two rubber (plastic) pads per handle. I assume you are talking about the bigger one  - under the key cylinder - that you show in one of your photos.
Can you measure the dimensions of the (somewhat elongated) hole and let us know. When I am back from the European event I'll take my handle out, measure and compare with your data.
As you can see in my photo (1966 230SL) the pad edge impressions are quite a bit outside the hole.

Also, are you pulling the handle back until the front is firmly grabbed by the screw in the slot of the smaller hole?
There is a screw in the door jamb that needs to be screwed into the handle; it will pull the handle back to its correct seat.
See second photo.

[Kevkeller]

As for spring winding I’ll just go to a local hobby shop and buy piano wire. It’s cheap and you can screw up several times trying to get it right.

[Pawel66]

Tom, not trying to defend EPC, but what happened there was:
- original part for 230Sl, A1007230211, was indeed 2mm adjustment plate - probably originally with the span for holding screws as for 230SL
- then the catcher changed and span of holding screws changed
- the note in the EPC for the part number A1007230211 says "TO BE ADAPTED DURING ASSEMBLY" - most likely because they do not produce new stock of the old version, they just have the new version and they tell you you will need to adapt it. I understand you received two 1mm plates to make 2mm required, which is somewhat ok.

So, in essence, you got what you needed with a "warning" you will have to adapt it. That is sometimes how it works in MB.

To be honest: I cut those adjusting plates myself from metal sheets of various thicknesses.

What we need to watch out for is replacements (you should always ask about it when you order parts that are visible). E.g. if you order oil filler cup, you will get the part that is replacing the original looking part  (with a different number) and it will be a plastic filler cup. It will fit, but it will not look as it should. For parts that are visible I always make a remark: I need to be notified if the number changes for replacement part number.

As for the pads for the handles - I see that only the right side is available, left is not, so no luck here.

[Benz Dr.]

Generally speaking, if you special order something through a MB dealer you will have to pay up front for it and once it arrives you own it. If it's the right part number but a different part, you will probably still own it.

[Tomnistuff]

Wow!  There are a lot of mini-subjects in this Curse discussion - three in this post alone.

Firstly, I'll address the Kevkeller post.  That's a great idea.  I never even thought of a hobby shop.  The worst part of what I did is straightening the original spring coil to make a new one.  Thanks.

Now the Powel66 post.  There's no need to defend the EPC.  I've used it so many times, I can't imagine starting the restoration without it.  Finishing the restoration with only a hard copy in JPG form instead of the interactive electronic version is difficult enough.  I know that if I still had the electronic version, I probably could have understood the notes "to be adapted during assembly" better and maybe even understood why the number was the same and the parts were different.  That was a no-no in the U.S. auto industry.  I did order two 2mm thick shims and got two 1mm thick shims.  I will have to make more.  The worst situation is shown in the first photo below.  The dimensions don't work with my correct original strikers (the silver one).  I'll have to cut them in the middle and maybe glue them to the original to keep everything aligned until the strikers are bolted down on top of them.  I really do need to re-shim the original hardware because my doors got moved during the restoration to make the gaps perfect.

Now to the 66andBlue post.  This one is not so easy to solve as the other ones.  The second photo answers your question, Alfred, and also gave me a clue to solving the problem, I hope.  The worst gap between the handle and the door is on the right door.  The left door is really, really close to exhibiting a gap but isn't a disaster like the right door is.  I hope I can apply the same solution as the right one but to a lesser degree.

The thing that "popped" out at me was the distance between the rear edge of the rear hole on the right door skin and the plane of the inner door frame surface that the inside of the door handle is screwed to through the rear surface of the door frame under the door seal.  And, no, I have not neglected the rear screw.  Strangely, it looks almost as if the door skin was originally mis-positioned rearward relative to the door frame, effectively positioning the hole too close to the handle surface on the door frame, or saying it another way, forcing the handle too far forward in the hole.  I discovered this by comparing the two doors and installing the handles without the rubber pads.  Please study my two dimensioned sketches and note that there is no space to accommodate the handle bolt surface overhang relative to the handle where it bolts to the rear of the door frame.  The surface should be at least 3 mm aft of the rear edge of the hole but is actually 0 mm or is flush with the rear edge of the hole.  I suggest that I will have to grind or file away some material on the door frame or the door handle to make it work.  Comments?

Dan C, you are exactly right, but I didn't even know how bad the problem was until I compared the parts at home after opening the package.

Tom Kizer
Levis, Quebec, Canada

[Pawel66]

Generally speaking, if you special order something through a MB dealer you will have to pay up front for it and once it arrives you own it. If it's the right part number but a different part, you will probably still own it.

I would not survive with this kind of arrangement... I have it vice-versa, actually...

[Pawel66]

On the distance plates - I understand. I cut them myself. If I had a shop who can do this kind of service nearby - I would have asked them. I found it later, when I was doing the shims for my camshaft pedestals...

[Tomnistuff]

Pawel66, the shims are not such a big deal.  I'll just lay it out with circles and straight lines on a piece of scrap aluminum sheet, then drill the circles and cut the straight lines with sheet metal shears or a hack saw.  Follow up with a bit of hammer flattening, filing and/or grinding.  It's almost all hand work.  It's probably even worth it once shipping cost is considered.  It's just that I'm getting old and want to minimize the grunt work.  I started working on cars, tractors and combine harvesters as a sub teenager on a Missouri dirt farm, worked up to an engineer in the auto industry and have restored two cars since retirement.  It's time for something else.

Tom Kizer

[Pawel66]

It's just that I'm getting old and want to minimize the grunt work.  I started working on cars, tractors and combine harvesters as a sub teenager on a Missouri dirt farm, worked up to an engineer in the auto industry and have restored two cars since retirement.  It's time for something else.

Tom Kizer

Believe me, I understand. 

[66andBlue]

...
The thing that "popped" out at me was the distance between the rear edge of the rear hole on the right door skin and the plane of the inner door frame surface that the inside of the door handle is screwed to through the rear surface of the door frame under the door seal.  And, no, I have not neglected the rear screw.  Strangely, it looks almost as if the door skin was originally mis-positioned rearward relative to the door frame, effectively positioning the hole too close to the handle surface on the door frame, or saying it another way, forcing the handle too far forward in the hole.  I discovered this by comparing the two doors and installing the handles without the rubber pads.  Please study my two dimensioned sketches and note that there is no space to accommodate the handle bolt surface overhang relative to the handle where it bolts to the rear of the door frame.  The surface should be at least 3 mm aft of the rear edge of the hole but is actually 0 mm or is flush with the rear edge of the hole.  I suggest that I will have to grind or file away some material on the door frame or the door handle to make it work.  Comments?

To be honest Tom, I can't quite comprehend what your problem is/was.
First, the rubber pad had shrunk and didn't cover the hole. But this appears to be no longer a problem because looking at your photo the pad fits fine around the base of the handle. Correct?
Second, what you need to accomplish now is to move the handle together with the pad further back to cover the hole. Correct?
I added a green arrow to your photo that shows the direction. Your photo shows the passenger door handle. Correct?

So what prevents the handle to move back? Is it the screw in the slot of the smaller hole - see blue arrow  in my photo?
Or is it the barrel/cylinder that sticks through the big hole (yellow arrow)? Since the barrel diameter is significantly smaller than the hole dimension I kind of doubt this.
In any case , DO NOT CUT THE DOOR PANEL or file down the handle, your problem must lie somewhere else.

[Tomnistuff]

Hi Alfred,
In the two photos below, the surface inside the hole is flush with the rear end of the hole.  It’s the surface against which the handle “boss” rests when the rear screw is tight.
In the handle photo, you can see that the handle “boss” protrudes beyond the part of the handle outside the hole.  This is the reason the gap is there.
You are right that the pads are the same.  Neither will cover the hole.  It must have gone unnoticed for decades.
I think i will try filling it with RTV.
The small hole is not the problem.  The screw is 4+ mm from the end of the slot.
Tom
PS: The photos are rotated 90 degrees counter clockwise from correct.  I took the photos and typed on my new iPhone, so I'm pretty ignorant still.

[Tomnistuff]

I guess the question is, “What is causing the “handle locating boss” die cast and machined surface of the door frame to be out of position relative to the door handle hole(s) in the door skin, assuming the handle is correct.  Next I will dimensionally compare the two handles.  I will also compare the distance from the end of the door skin to the surface of the rear of the door frame.  I suspect that the door skin was mispositioned on the door frame during manufacture fifty-odd years ago.  For sure, the hole is not right relative to the handle “Locating boss”.  The question is again, “Why?”

[waltklatt]

Tomnistuff,
Try this method.
Remove the front screw and washer from the door handle.
Insert the rubber pad on the rear(larger pad).
Slide the handle into the hole on the door.
Push back till rubber covers the hole.

Does it cover the hole?

If, yes, then your front screw is too tight, loosen it to allow the handle slide back more.

If, no, then there is too much build up on the inside of the mounting place in the door(back screw to hold handle back), or it's been pushed in somehow.

Try that. 
That should also allow the locking and unlocking feature to work better.

Walter

[Tomnistuff]

Hi, Walter,
In my Sept 23 post, I said that the small hole is not the problem, and that the screw is 4+ mm from the end if the slot.  i should have added, "when the handle is farthest aft, and the handle "stop boss" is hard up against the surface of the rear screw "boss" on the door frame.  All of this with or without the pads.  it is the same.  The inside surface of the rear screw "boss" stops the handle from moving aft.
Tom Kizer

[Pawel66]

Tom,

I did not work on fitting the handles, I was just doing tumblers. But what I think I would do, if I understand your issue correctly, I would:
1. Check the front handle bolt fit to its hole in case I would grind 2-3mm from this "sticking out" element of the handle to move the handle 2-3mm (or whatever you need) aft.

2. I would grind 2-3mm off of that "sticking out" piece

3. Check if I need to use a shorter screw that holds the handle from aft and screw it all together.

But that's just me - it can be a completely stupid solution. But I thought - hole, RTV... that does not sound right. And if anything nees to be played with or cut - this is the simplest piece and it can be undone via a shim.

[Tomnistuff]

Pawel66,
If it's stupid, that makes two of us.  I've attached another sketch with two sets of measurements to show the problem.
Black dimensions are the left door which is barely OK.  The red dimensions are the right door which has what I estimated as an eighth inch gap at the rear of the handle.

The measurements say the right door problem should be 2.3 mm, based on the barely OK left door dimensions.  I still see two solutions, ignoring, as being really really stupid, the possibility of reskinning and repainting the door.  I'm not going to take it to Pebble Beach - EVER!

Solution 1:  Fill the gap with black RTV, since my car is painted DB332 Dunkelblau, or almost blue-black.  Success might depend on the quality of the job done.  At least it's reversible.

Solution 2:  Grind off 2.5 mm of the door handle mounting boss surface.  There's plenty of clearance in the front hole slot.

There is a risk of a potential problem with solution 2.  Moving the door handle 2.5 mm aft will fix the hole but it will also move the handle's lock button shaft and its little bat-wing shaped lock-lever-limiter 2.5 mm aft, creating a misalignment with the lock/unlock lever on the latch assembly.  Potential lock function problems could (probably would) result.

The only risk-free (albeit potentially ugly) solution that I see is to "fill" the gap.  I think Black RTV will do the best job if I use a tiny shaped plastic blade to sculpt or squeegee the RTV into the gap after the handle and pads are installed.

If it doesn't work, I can always clean it up and start over.  See the next post for the sketch and dimensions.

Tom Kizer

[Tomnistuff]

Oops!  I forgot the sketch and dimensions.  It is a section horizontally through the door handle slot in the door skin and a part of the rear door frame that the handle bolts to.  Black dimensions are left door (OK).  Red dimensions are right door (problem)

Tom Kizer

[66andBlue]

Tom
i am traveling and looking at your drawing on my small phone screen doesn’t help me figuring out your problem.
I am still not clear where the bar - i guess you call it “boss”? - with the screw hole hits the door frame.
Is it edge of the hole in the door panel or the door jamb where the screw goes through.
I believe the hole edge meets the handle where the green arrow points to.
The bar meets the jamb - red arrow.

[Tomnistuff]

Hi Alfred,
The cylindrical part of the handle does not contact the edge of the hole at all.  The "bar" or "boss" on the handle is pulled hard against a similarly shaped "bar" that is a part of the inside rear wall of what you call the jamb and what I call the door frame, the die cast (I think) aluminum door sized structure to which all the door hardware, including the door skin and inside door panel are attached.
I will take two more photos today to show something that I noticed yesterday.  They will show that the "rolled" edge of the door hole fits nicely into the gap between the pad surface on the handle and the beginning of the "bar", (your green arrow) but only if the handle is rotated to be non-horizontal so that the handle "bar" in not in the plane of, and does not contact the "bar" on the door jamb.  The photos convince me that it is the "bar" contact that keeps the handle too far forward and causes the "gap".  My dimensions sketch attempts to explain why and how.
I will post the photos in a few hours.
Tom Kizer

[Pawel66]

I see - if there is a threat of interfering with tumbler lever/locking lever operation when handle moved aft - yes, RTV or filler + paint pencil is the simple solution and partial closing of the hole in the door skin and re-painting is the hard core solution... here you could maybe just "unbind" the edge of the hole, you need just 2.5mm, but some paint would/could come off. Could be perhaps, if it can be done via "unbinding" gently, you could get away with paint pencil, with some luck...

When I look at your picture, this "bound" hole edge is quite deep, actually.

Unless there are better ideas from fellow Members, which we hope for...

[Tomnistuff]

Here are three photos that show respectively:
(1) The bars or bosses screwed together by the rear screw.  You can see the end of the screw penetrating the bars.
(2) The handle in the hole, but rotated 90 degrees CW and pushed upwards.  You can see that the hole edge goes easily and deeply into the space where Alfred’s green arrow was pointing in his last photo.
(3) The last is with the handle in its correct orientation and screwed in place like the first photo.  Note the large gap.  The bars are preventing the handle from moving aft far enough to cover the hole even if the pad were installed.

This leads back to the dimensional comparison in my last sketch.  Because, relative to the door jamb bar, the left door hole is 2.5 mm farther forward than is the right door hole, the left handle covers it’s hole but the right handle cannot cover it’s hole.

I still think it is a factory build issue from 52 years ago.

Please excuse the colors.  One photo is without flash due to reflections.
Tomorrow