Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: pauldridge on May 16, 2008, 22:53:48
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Great article in the June edition on Pagodas. Maybe my blundering purchase of a 230SL will be exonerated in the future!
Read the article here:
http://www.auldridge.org/images/sportsCarMarketPagodaArticle.pdf
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Great, Thank you,
Kemal
280SL
Manual LHD 69
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Very interesting.
I'm not sure what to think about modifying a later car with early stuff. Ex. replacing later nylon with square weave carpeting. I always thought the more original a car is the more valuable it will be on the market.
Good counterpoint, I prefer square weave to the later nylon, so I can see why a 280SL owner would go with switch to the earlier carpeting.
No question the earlier cars look is that much more beautiful (less add on stuff).
The more I read about Pagodas the more I see the earlier cars (230SL in particular) finally getting the recoginition they deserve.
Peter Perry
1965 230SL White Ivory/Green
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I don't buy or sell W113's. I inherited mine, albeit as a "basket case" that was more suited for the crusher than a restoration...it's also a family heirloom, so I'm not likely to sell it unless something untold happens. Thus, my interest in pricing is mere curiosity.
You should know that Mr. Dearborn makes a market in trading W113's, among others. Thus, full disclosure is in order: he has an interest in seeing all the prices higher. Not a criticism, but the facts.
Taking one step further, with some minor exception (such as for a full engine rebuild because of some engine parts pricing) essentially, the cost to "restore" a 230SL is about the same as for a 280SL--many parts are identical or at least identically priced; plating a bumper, etc. about the same. But, "until now" if one is to believe some of the recent commentary, the later cars, both 250SL and 280SL have always commanded a higher price. One would always see a better return on "investing" in a later model than an earlier one--whether that investment is in the entire car or in restoring all or part of it.
Thus, I'm not convinced of his pricing commentary particularly since his standing on the advisory board of SL Market Place newsletter, and their price listing, seems contrary to his opinion here. Not that I don't believe there may be truth to it, nor do I doubt his integrity--just need to see it to believe it. If anything I suspect that the differential in pricing may close--with earlier cars coming up and the difference between a 230SL and 280SL narrowing.
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I am glad to hear some of our other members had a chance to read Alex Dearborn article. I agree the prices especially for the last year of the W113 would command a higher return. however if you read carefully Mr.Dearborn is talking about restored early 230SLs vs 280SL resale value. I would rather have a 280SL with aa ZF 5 speed and limited slip if I had the choice and money between the two.
some feel the 230SL was more zisty and that the 280SL Became more lax in its handling and performance. this may be true as more rubber was added to soften the suspension on the later 280SL but engine performance certainly did not in my opinion going by the figures only the torque range changed.
Still this is Mr.Dearborns article and not being an expert on the subject I look to John Olsons SL market letter for price trends for these cars.
Bob Geco
1968 280SL
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There is yet another in June Mercedes Enthusiast.
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A very nice 230SL is selling for $75K on Ebay with a few hours to go.
Item number: 250247804864
Zanone
66 230SL
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quote:
Originally posted by zanone
A very nice 230SL is selling for $75K on Ebay with a few hours to go.
Item number: 250247804864
Zanone
66 230SL
And not one shot of the underside. The hood gap in the front looks a bit wide and the door panels are a bit puffy and wrinkly. Tabs on parcel shelves are painted (should be cad). I'm being picky, but at this price one should be. Just a couple of examples.
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Is that valve cover breather pipe original?
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quote:
Originally posted by waqas
Is that valve cover breather pipe original?
For an earlier car yes, but not for a '67. Same goes for the engine oil dipstick. But then the chassis number on the firewall plate does not support it being a '67, either!
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Hughes
For an earlier car yes, but not for a '67. Same goes for the engine oil dipstick. But then the chassis number on the firewall plate does not support it being a '67, either!
Yes, and it has 280SL style radio and cigar lighter knobs. Car #12500 would have been built in August 1965. Nice round number, though! I love the color combination. Oh, they're using carpeted floor mats instead of rubber. It has a KM/h speedo, but and English center cluster! It sold for $75,100!!!
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http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&viewitem=&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch-completed.ebay.com%3A80%2Fsearch%2Fsearch.dll%3Fsofocus%3Dbs%26sbrftog%3D1%26dfsp%3D1%26catref%3DC6%26from%3DR40%26satitle%3D250247804864%26sacat%3D-1%2526catref%253DC6%26fmmk%3D%26fmmd%3D%26fylo%3D%26fyhi%3D%26mppfqy%3D250247804864%26sargn%3D-1%2526saslc%253D2%26sadis%3D200%26fpos%3D12144%26sabfmts%3D1%26saobfmts%3Dinsif%26fis%3D2%26ftrt%3D1%26ftrv%3D1%26saprclo%3D%26saprchi%3D%26sadis1%3D100%26fpos1%3D12144%26lsot1%3D%26fsop%3D1%2526fsoo%253D2%26fgtp%3D%26sadis2%3D100%26fpos2%3D12144%26lsot2%3D%26fvi%3D1&item=250247804864
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Corrected item related to passenger visor absense of mirror.
Just goes to show that there's a sucker born every second. "Featured" at the Amelia Island Concours d'Elegance. What's "Featured" mean? It's not on the Amelia Island web-site in any form.
The E-Bay hype says motor just overhauled for $3.3k, but the dealer's web-site says only the "top-end" of the motor was overhauled for that price... sounds like the head had to be replaced.
And it's an automatic tranny.
Sorry, but though the paint job sure looks shiny (notice all the shots that show high reflection angles), and upholstery chioce of colors is especially well chosen for the car body color, there were no shots that showed anything of import... on one side of the car the rubber strip garnishment looks offset at the door-front fender interface, for example, but photos were specifically taken to avoid certain detail info... gaps at hood, doors, trunk-lid. The photo of the driver side top of trunk-lid shows a possibly variable gap but more importantly a raised edge paint job at the right lip.... reflection of clouds shows the raised paint edge. This is a tell-tale of a not particularly well done job prior to painting and clear-coating... probably even a lack of a decent color sanding job. Tail-lights are the 280SL version... not even early 250SL's, European version or otherwise had the two tone (orange) tail-lights. I did find the photos that showed the passenger visor had NO mirror in it... which was standard in all 230SL's and early 250SL's. Lots of the finer details of an authentic original 230SL were omitted in the photos. Engine compartment detail shows incorrect plating as well. Also note the glovebox door attachment screws of 2 different types! Yikes.
No telling what was under the paint and upholstery. Shiny sells, though all that glitters is not gold. Paying $75 grand for a non-original 230SL (notice the lack of any hardtop pics, or softtop and it's frame, for that matter) from an unnamed restorer in Canada that hodged various version features together with a paint job that's shiny, but certainly not flat, begs the question of what else is under the covers... no telling.
IMO, somebody really got ripped off... by approx. 2x what it was actually worth.... at best.
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I'm sure there was an awful lot of money spent on the restoration of this very pretty car. I think this group, rightly so, is extremely critical of the details that frankly a lot of owners would never notice. Looking at the details as they are done.. does shiny sell? certainly, but is it for us to say the new owner was ripped off? Perhaps the old owner was the one ripped off having likley paid quite a bit more for all the very well done chrome- engine bay leather etc and being told this was an accurate restoration. I think this car will show well and win awards at "local" car shows where the judges won't know the details and the new owner will be very proud of his purchase. Looking at what's out there now for half the price it would be hard to see such a "pretty" car and I think a correct one at 37.5 k would cost a lot more to bring up to this condition
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I've seen a couple (only 2) $75k and $80k 230SL's being fully restored, body off, top to bottom, including rebuilt engine and all other mechanicals & suspension, meticulous paint and with all original details, with quality leather interior, new soft-top including frame, hard-top with all rechromed pieces, new wood, etc., including fully show quality engine bay and all lines and pieces properly replated to original. This ain't a $75k value 230SL. New or prior owner may be proud, but value's another issue. Of course, that said, value (& beauty) is in the eye of the beholder.
By the way, I've corrected my previous post... the passenger side visor DOES NOT have the mirror.... so that's just another of the various items that preclude this car having a $75k value as a 230SL. If these items aren't 230SL version features, then what items that aren't visible in the photos are less than restored or in fact even deteriorated? Like I said, shiny sells.
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I cannot imagine that quality of the restoration work your envisioning could be had for that level of investment. I imagine the true sucker then would be the person who spent over 100K to do the restoration then sold it for 75k. Would it be fair to say that 75 k may have been invested in making the car "shiny" in the ebay case? Perhaps then it would be a fair buy, a concours car would be a bargain at 75k considering the investmet needed to get the car in that shape. I not really discussing economics and market forces just values. Im hoping to see "ferrari 250 california" like speculation on pagodas in a few years
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The good news here is that sales like this make my 230SL (and many others!) more valuable over time.
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Looks like the PDF file has been removed. If anyone saved it would they be so kind as to email the file over to me? TIA, David