Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Research & Development => Topic started by: Garry on March 30, 2010, 22:54:04
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Well I have finally given up on obtaining a 5 speed ZF for the car at a reasonable price and decided to give a Getrag 265 5 speed conversion a try instead. I am told it will be much easier to maintain and a much smoother gearbox than the ZF anyway!! Thought about the T5 but decided to stick with the Getrag 265 as it is easier to get it and parts here in Australia.
After some exchanges of emails with another member, Mark Bull in UK re the conversion and what is needed I have located a BMW Getrag 265 5 Speed with standard overdrive (as distinct from the 5 speed with dog leg) in good condition (I hope). Currently on its way from Queensland 3,000km north. When I finally get it I am then going to get a conversion kit Mark has developed and install the new box in the car.
Several years ago I did the rear axle conversion from a 4.08 to a 3.46. Whilst I still have the original axle, I plan to leave the 3.46 ratio axle in at this point and see how it goes with the option of changing back to the 4.08 if necessary. Anyone had any experience with the lower axle ratio on a 5 speed?
Hopefully I will be able to document the conversion as it occurs. Parts costs expected so far are $AUD 1,200 or about US$1000 and that covers gear box and conversion kit.
Garry
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Garry,
I have the 3,27 axle and standard SL 4 speed. I think its perfect. What is the 5th gear ratio? Maybe its close to my final drive ratio.
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I believe it is 0.81 and all the ratios are close to the ZF except the ZF was normally fitted with a 4.08 rear end.
With my 3.46 and a four speed I think it matches well so a 3.27 to a four speed should be similar to the 3.46 to the 5th gear? right??
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Garry,
3,000 rpms in my car with 3.27 rear and 1.0 trans final ratio makes 68.23 mph
With a 3.46 rear and .82 trans final ratio your car would make same mph at 2,600 rpms. This will make your car a real highway cruiser in 5th gear.
I love the color of your car....maybe because its the same as mine!
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Given we have an overall speed limit here of 110kph, or about 68mph it will be very low revving but 95% of my driving is highway so should make for some pleasant cruising.
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Should be great and improve gas mileage.
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I have a 1973 BMW 3.0CSI (E9) with an overdrive Getrag 265. Reverse is in the upper-forward left and overdrive in upper forward right. The dogleg has reverse & 1st in one axis, 2nd & 3rd another axis, and 4th & 5th in the last axis.
You might want to look at e9coupe.com site and do a search under Getrag...you will find alot of info as it is a popular conversion from the 4 speed.
abe
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Garry,
I too am in the midst of the same conversion. Regrettably my car has been at the at a friends having some metal work done for the past 3-1/2 years so I am sort of stalled.
Here is what I know from experience:
The spline pattern of the Getrag will fit the 113 clutch disc.
Use the 113 Bell housing, You will need to drill and tap the bellhousing so you can bolt in the casting that holds the clutch bearing on the 113.
The area that carries the clutch bearing on the Getrag needs to be cut off but leave the area that holds the Getrag front seal so you can keep the oil in the Getrag
I believe the proper thickness for the adapter plate is 17mm(I used 19mm aluminum plate). The bolt patterns are very tight to each other.
Use the pilot bearing from the 113 to fit the flywheel. You will have to make an adapter busing to bush the inside of the bearing down to the smaller pilot on the Getrag. I spent hours looking for a proper bearing but I am almost positive there is not one(I am really good at sourcing stuff like that).
I haven't done the shifter yet but I am almost sure you will be ahead of the game if you use the BMW shifter and add the Mercedes lever.
Most Getrag 265's do not have a Mechanical speedo. You will need the parts from one that does so you can convert it.
That's as far as I have gotten. The things I am sure will be interesting are the mounts, Driveshaft and getting the speedo connected and calibrated.
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Thanks Abe and Shvegel,
I am doing the conversion with a lot of help from Mark Bull, another UK member on the forum who is putting together a conversion kit. At this point I am still awaiting delivery of the Getrag 265 gearbox that i located here in Oz. An interesting point on the mechanical speedo. To be honest I had not thought about that and am not sure what the gear box I have coming has on it and that will be another item to work through.
Garry
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Take one 5 speed Getrag Gear box P/N 262 05100 arrived today.
Conversion kit on order from Mark Bull (Forum Member mkbull)
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Has anyone on the forum done an electronic speedo conversion. I am deciding whether to change over the sender unit in the Getrag gear box from an electrical sender to a mechanical unit that I am told can be done fairly easily with parts from BMW or actually find a newer speedo with the same face from a Merc that is an electronic one and linking it to the sender unit.
Garry
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Not a real comment, just pondering the irony of using BMW parts to improve a Mercedes... ;)
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I have more confidence of BMW parts than say reproduction parts made in China!
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Garry,
I installed an Abbott Tach Cable-X box to convert the electronic signal from my T-5. www.Abbott-Tach.com. It's about $300 direct or from Jeg's etc.
The install is fairly simple. I picked up the hot lead and ground and came under the carpet from the shifter to under the driver's seat. I fastened down the box with some industrial strength Velcro so as not to drill more holes. I did put in a small sheet metal screw under the seat on the back of the cross member to ground the box and transmission ground wires. There are two holes in either side of the cross member near the door with rubber plugs installed. I ran the speedo cable through those holes and under the carpet to the extreme left of the floorpan and up the inside of the firewall into the back of the speedo.
I have it matching the speed on my GPS now. The set up requires a bit of math, but the instructions are good and if you have an issue, the tech at the factory is very helpful. Adjustments are with dip switches, so be sure you have enough electric wire to leave the box on the floor in front of the seat so you can adjust the switches without having to remove the seat. It took me about 6 tries to get it exact.
There is bit of wobble in the needle during slower acceleration, but it's fine at steady speeds.
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Thanks Ray,
I wish I had taken a much closer look at your conversion at PUB last year, I was still dis-illusional that I would find a decent ZF for an honest price at that time.
I will have a look at that and also hopefully look at one of the UK Getrag conversions and see the mechanical method that they have done when in Europe later in the year for the Euro Tour.
For Ulif and Hauser, I thought that some form of Getrag gear box had been used in some model Mercedes at one time but don't know the answer for sure. A bit like generic ZF boxes in lots of different make of cars.
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They were used on Mercedes 240D, 300GD, 200GE, 280GE, G320, G300TD, G270CDI, G400CDI, G500, G55,...
They are very good transmissions and I would not put them down because they are coming from BMW.
abe
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Now I have a Gertrag Gearbox, and the conversion Kit from Mark Bull.
Have decided to go with keeping the original Speedo and am awaiting the parts from BMW to convert their Getrag electronic speedo drive to mechanical.
Hopefully next week parts arrive from Germany.
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Garry,
I would encourage you to take a lot of photos and write up an article for the next edition of Pagoda World. This will give us two documented approaches to a 5-speed conversion.
And, how much was the Bull conversion kit?
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Hi Ray,
About $550 plus shipping. The gear box digital conversion with new BMW parts was about the same amount as well and a Getrag 265 gear box also about the same amount.
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:) I'm certainly not putting down BMW - have a 5-series as my daily driver (two silver straight-6 engined German cars looks very teutonic in the driveway). A friend of mine had the gearbox in his old Maserati Biturbo replaced with a ZF once - that never failed again, but the rest of the car did on a weekly basis...
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More parts.
The BMW worm gear, drive and spacer to be installed on Getrag 265 to convert the drive from electronic to mechanical.
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Hi Garry,
Ill be attempting mine this weekend after finally gathering all the parts necessary. Lets hope it goes smoothly!
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It seems that Pagoda owners in the UK have snapped up every 265 going! I found it so difficult to get hold of one that eventually when I was offered a second one I bought that too just in case I get another request to install one.
It seems that these boxes are much sought after for other installations too, not least of which is the AC cobra boys.
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Yes these boxes have a hell of a following... Good luck with the conversion!
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Hoi Garry,
The combination 1:3,46 axle and Getrag 265 gear box works perfect. I still can reach 200km/h in 5 gear of course under good conditions.
I wish you luck with your conversion.
Peter
Well I have finally given up on obtaining a 5 speed ZF for the car at a reasonable price and decided to give a Getrag 265 5 speed conversion a try instead. I am told it will be much easier to maintain and a much smoother gearbox than the ZF anyway!! Thought about the T5 but decided to stick with the Getrag 265 as it is easier to get it and parts here in Australia.
After some exchanges of emails with another member, Mark Bull in UK re the conversion and what is needed I have located a BMW Getrag 265 5 Speed with standard overdrive (as distinct from the 5 speed with dog leg) in good condition (I hope). Currently on its way from Queensland 3,000km north. When I finally get it I am then going to get a conversion kit Mark has developed and install the new box in the car.
Several years ago I did the rear axle conversion from a 4.08 to a 3.46. Whilst I still have the original axle, I plan to leave the 3.46 ratio axle in at this point and see how it goes with the option of changing back to the 4.08 if necessary. Anyone had any experience with the lower axle ratio on a 5 speed?
Hopefully I will be able to document the conversion as it occurs. Parts costs expected so far are $AUD 1,200 or about US$1000 and that covers gear box and conversion kit.
Garry
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Hi Jay and Peter, Thanks for info, I am in Switzerland at the moment and getting ready to attend the Euro Tour week after next but left my car with a good mechanic to work on fitting the gear box whilst I am away for the month of September. I just ran out of time to do anythingmyself so hopefully all will go well. Glad to know that I will not need to refit my old 4.08 axle.
Garry
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I've just fitted one of these for a forum member and I have to say that it's not difficult BUT it did present quite a few challenges due to the unknown and experimental nature.
Firstly obtaining a box here in the UK is very difficult. The first one I obtained turned out, after I'd modified it, to be a dog leg sport box despite me seeking assurance from my supplier that it was an O/D box. As a dedicated Mercedes man I know nothing of BMW boxes and learnt that the two boxes are externally very similar but there are visual cues once you know what to look for. It was quite a struggle to obtain the correct box and then I ended up buying two as they're so rare.
Installing the speedo drive requires removal of the rear cover and this requires special tools.
Obtaining the correct propshaft coupling also proved to be a bit of a drama.
The first incarnation of the modified selector rod fouled the propshaft coupling and had to be re-made.
Having the speedo cable made was a bit hit and miss as I didn't have a BMW one to offer as a sample so had to take measurements from the box and create a drawing (I ordered two cables so if I need anymore I can simply send my spare off to be replicated)
The speedo cable cotter pin that secures it to the box was also a last minute drama; a) because I didn't have one and so had to make one and b) because the o/haul company hadn't lined up the drive shaft properly and so even when I did make the pin it wouldn't locate properly and so I had to engineer a completely different fastener.
Lastly I made some mods to the fitting kit as supplied by Mark to make installation simpler.
The vehicle owner is coming back on Friday for some fettling but he reports that the high speed cruising is much improved, if a little noisier than he was expecting. I don't know yet but it sounds like there may be a problem with the box despite my insisting that we have it o/hauled before installation.
When I get time I'll write some more on the subject, including a definitive list of parts.
For the moment however I'd say it's not a job to be taken on lightly.
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Hi Colin,
Well done on getting it finished.
My comments would be to get the box fully redone by Allgears in nottingham next time. This way the speedo drive will already be done and the box completely refurbed.
As for the speedo cable, speedy cables have the exact part numbers you need, there should have been no messing about here. For a LHD its 211556.
Preparation is the key with this job. The conversion itself takes no more than a few hours.
I also had trouble with the gear linkage, I tried various angles until I got it just right and then welded the rods together.
The biggest pain is cutting out the transmission tunnel behind the hand brake.
For your info, my fully refurbed and guaranteed box is a little whiney too. The old 4 speed was completely silent. But its not noisy enough to warrant my time removing it again.
You are right though, its not a job for the inexperienced or those without a ramp!
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For a LHD its 211556
Thanks Jay, is this a BMW part number or Speedy cable's part number?
And why LHD, isn't that going to be too short for RHD?
Colin
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Thats Speedy Cables..
LHD the one I kept a note of for my car, im sure speedy cable will have the part number for the associate RHD cable.
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A simple question and an embarrassing one to ask but....
After fitting the getrag into the car, I am unable to locate reverse.
Question before I have the gearbox in bits, what is the pattern for gears on the box, just to make sure I am not doing something really silly??
Garry
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It's next to 1st unless it's different from mine.
Same pattern as the stock four with the fifth next to third. I used a four speed knob and had it modified by a jewelry engraver. Once it was done it was covered in a thick clear shell.
Here's the photo of my shifter knob.
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Thanks Fernando, Must do the same for the gear nob.
Took the box out and opened it and appears there was a poorly fitted item, hopefully it will work this time. What I must do when its put back in is to make sure that the gear lever is the right way round as picked up by another member in an earlier post of a photo of my interior as there is a slight kink in the gear lever that should sit forward. Maybe you have the same problem with the lever the wrong way around?
Will send a photo once done.
Garry
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It's next to 1st unless it's different from mine.
Same pattern as the stock four with the fifth next to third. I used a four speed knob and had it modified by a jewelry engraver. Once it was done it was covered in a thick clear shell.
Here's the photo of my shifter knob.
Ok spill the beans, where can I get that knob??!
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Get a new stock 4 speed knob. Take it to an engraver and have them add a 5 and make it look like the rest. I then took it to someone that does cypress clocks. These clocks are coated in a thick clear epoxy resin and had the same done to mine. The original knob being that it was twenty years old (post Getrag install) had worn off numbers. I didn't want the same thing to happen to mine and came up with the epoxy shell coating. I think it turned out well.
The epoxy coating can be done at home but the fumes are quite hazardous to your health (warning label on the can). I didn't want to mess with this because of my kids.
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Excellent! Has to be done... now wheres my nearest engraver...
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I am a happy man tonight.
I finally got the gear box back in the car after several tries. There were several modifications that were needed to get it all to fit properly including using some spacers under the Gear Box Mounting to get the mount to sit 8mm lower and to get it to fit which then meant that I did not have to do any body modifications in the tunnel. Had to undo the engine mounts to get the engine to move a bit to allow it to be moved into place and a couple of oblong bolt holes to allow variation in the fitting of the new tail shaft.
Have had a drive and its a dream. The Getrag box from the BMW M3 has nice crisp short throws and the box is as silent as any new car which is lucky as I did not have it overhauled as it was supposedly in good condition and all I am now awaiting is a new speedo cable due to a different end to the speedo worm drive I fitted in the gearbox in place of the electronic sender. I don't know the full variation in speed to revs at this point. What I do know is that the 3.46 rear end with the 5 speed is just fine and I will not change back to my old 4.08 diff. Maybe I can sell it to pay the cost of the Getrag!! Hopefully next week I will get the speedo connected and can get the readings and what it has done to the revs as I want to also replace a couple of the hosed that are leaking oil before taking it out for a long drive.
For Ashim, I have left the gear lever sitting the wrong way round as it sits better rather than the kink toward the front that makes it sit up a bit high. Will photograph it when I get the car all together and back home.
And I must get an engraver at one of the Malls to add the 5th gear position.
Will add some photos hopefully next week.
Garry
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Hallo,
do you know that SLS sells 5-speed knobs in the original design in black or white ?
best regards Franz
Doing the Getrag 265 conversion in my 230SL in Austria after having solved some problems with my new engine. And reading this thread very interested.
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But the local engraver at the mall does it for $10 ;) ;D ;D
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Hallo,
i see.
regards Franz
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The ZF 5 speed knob has a different pattern.
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Hi Garry, pleased to hear you got the gearbox in successfully, I am interested in why you needed to drop the mount 8mm - since I am pretty sure the mount I sent you puts the gearbox in the correct alignment.
I suspect the setup will cope with very large "out of alignment" due to the flexi coupling and central uj.
Most of these old cars are driving around with well worn rear gearbox mounts and this will have the same effect as your set up ie. drops the engine at the rear.
You may just encounter a couple of problems - one is the long term additional stress on the flexi coupling due to the out of alignment and secondly you will probably notice that you have difficulty getting your rocker cover off, (this can be overcome by simply jacking your engine up slightly at the rear of the gearbox if you ever need to remove the valve cover)
Great solution on the 5 speed knob (i purchased a standard 5 speed knob - figured i would just put up with it being incorrect) but seeing hausers idea - i must get one of those for myself.
Mark
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Hi Mark,
I already had problems with the rocker cover removal after fitting new engine mounts and always had to jack the engine a bit to remove. The box was just too tight in the tunnel and I noted that others have made some alterations in the metal work which I did not want to do so the easiest was to lower it a bit and then realign the whole thing hence other adjustments that were made for the tail shaft. It runs a smoothly but as I said I have not had a chance to take it out on a long run yet.
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For anyone contemplating this swap most Getrag 265 gearboxes do not have a speedometer drive. the speedometer gears to add the speedo drive to a Getrag 265 are about $300USD from BMW. However the gears are the same from any Getrag in a BMW. Bavaria, E9 CS coupe, Early 5 series etc.
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I did the change, its a single worm drive that fits in the position that the electronic drive comes from and yes it is very expensive if you want to buy one from BMW.
You will also need a new speedo cable as the end fitting into the gear box is different to the MB but not that expensive.
And, it is fantastic to drive with the 5 speed and a 3.46 rear end, a true overdrive. Plays havoc with the speedo calibration that I have not resolved yet.
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I had Mark supply the cable when he sent the kit so I'm covered there.
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As you refit the gear box, watch for the clearance on the LH side of the tunnel. I had limited clearance and rather than change the tunnel shape to have it fit, I used some spacers on the support bracket that worked just fine and gave the needed additional clearance. I suspect the rubber mounts are just a fraction too high and may well compress with some time and the spacers removed.
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I suggest that anyone contemplating this should definitely have the gearbox overhauled first.
I've had enormous problems in getting a quiet gearbox that selects all 6 gears, including an inability to select reverse after the gearbox had been to a second "specialist" for overhaul. Luckily the customer doesn't use the car in winter but that's just as well because it's taken a full seven months to get a satisfactory outcome. That said the result is excellent!
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Stick,
I had a similar problem with my box not selecting reverse. I took it to a gearbox specialist who said that it was a minor problem with the selectors and changed me $75. Was fixed in 1/2 hour. Maybe just luck but I agree you want a good gearbox to start otherwise you can waste your money. Luckily I got mine from an M5 that had been written off with only 15,000km on it.
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The electronic to mechanical speedometer and the calibration problem can be resolved with the Abbott Cable-X box. It uses the electronic pick-up off of the side of the transmission and contains an electric motor that drives the speedo cable. I paid just under $300 for it and had a cable fabricated by a local shop for $28. The speed of the motor is controlled with dip switches. It comes with a chart for a starting point, and with a GPS, and some trial and error, you can dial in the speed exactly, no matter what the rear gear ratio or final transmission gear ratio.
I mounted the box under the driver's seat with Velcro. The speedo cable runs under the carpet in one of the grooves in the floorboard. There is already a hole in the crossmember under the seat that allows the cable to pass through. I connected the power wire to the back of the fuse box and ran that wire under the carpet in the corner of the floorboard. The wire for the pickup can run under the carpet and through the shifter hole and to the side of the transmission. If you do the transmission now, and the rear end later, you just flip a couple of dip switches to re-calibrate the speed. You can even compensate for tire diameter.
Unfortunately, this leaves you with no excuses for the local constabulary.
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Ray,
Are you attending PUB again, I would like to see the setup?
Garry
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Hello,
A Getrag 5-speed ex-BMW seems hard to find but there are quite a lot of Getrag 265 around that were fitted to Opels Manta, Ascona and Kadett.
Can they be converted to be used in an Pagoda?
greetings,
Erik
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Hi Eric,
Here is what Mark Bull provided me to find the correct Getrag gear box:
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you can tell it is a 265 from distinctive features
1 it has a detachable bellhousing
2 the casting is in 3 destinctive sections
3 it will probably be stamped with a casting number that starts 262
not so easy to distinguish between the 5 speed dogleg box (which is a close ratio box with 1:1 top gear) and the 5 speed ov erdrive box.
Unquote
I have attached a photo of the one I bought for reference
Also here is his site that goes thru the process of changing over the Gear Box
http://www.mercedespagoda.co.uk/
Garry
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Hi Eric
I have just purchased another 265 off ebay UK for a terrific price since it already has the mechanical speedo drive fitted.
There are also five 265's for sale on ebay USA right now at great prices.
Always one or two on ebay Germany but they seem to ask a lot of euro's....
If you ever need help in positively identifying a gearbox you have located, send me a message and I will ensure you are not chasing the wrong item.
Mark