Progressive Springs

[jeffc280sl]

I contacted coilsprings.com, located in Kansas, and requested a quote for front and rear progressive springs.  Has anyone purchased products from this company?  They were very responsive and requested OEM part numbers so they could make a pattern. I provided the information and they provided the following quotation:

Front Spring       $225.00 per pair
Rear Spring        $199.00 per pair
Shipping (approx)  $32.00
Delivery (approx)  2-3 weeks

They said the springs would be variable rate as requested.  I requested progressive rate so I suppose it means the same thing. It's possible they would offer a discount for quantity purchases.

If this is an apples to apples comparison these springs are considerably less expensive then John Olsen's.  What does the group think about this information?

Regards,

Jeff
1970 280SL 4 speed

[Cees Klumper]

I suppose that, unless someone has experience with this company's product, the only way to find out whether it's "apples to apples" is to have a technical comparison done of the springs' specs. From driving in someone's car that has John Olsen-supplied springs installed, I do know the difference with standard MB springs is significant (positive that is!)

'69 white 280 SL

[Tom]

Jeff,

I know the cost of the springs seems high, but what I believe will happen if you use a "generic" source is that you will not be happy and could be putting springs on your car that are not safe.  Also, the job is about a 6-8 hour job to replace the springs.  So, if they are not right, you will eat up the difference the 2nd time around plus all of the headache.

I have no financial interest in promoting the springs that John Olsen sells.  I do have the springs on my car and the before and after is remarkable.  You will not be disappointed.

Best Regards,

Tom Sargeant

[71 pagoda]

Tom,
You once said that you switched to a lower sitting progressive spring.
When Im ready to order them, what spring do I ask for?  Is it a good idea to change to bilsteins at the same time?
Thanks
Larry

[Tom]

The front springs were too high by about an inch so John sent me another set.  I would check with John to see if he thinks he should order yours 1 inch lower as well.

I had bilsteins on before and after-it would make sense to go ahead and switch shocks at the same time if you plan to do this work.  Also replace your spring pads.

Best,

Tom Sargeant

[jeffc280sl]

Coilsprings.com has confirmed that they are the supplier to John Olsen, Inc.  They have refered me to him for all race and lowered springs.

JeffC

[Tom]

This was posted on our sister site at Yahoo:

From:   "Lawrence Gettleman" <gettleman@louisville.edu>
Date:  Thu Mar 6, 2003  8:44 am
Subject:  More on John Olson's Progressive Rate Springs

 
 
 
Dear Group,
 
John Olson is in Norway but added a few comments to his previous offer to sell us springs with a group discount:
 
""Thanks for your help. Fact is I am in Europe as this question arose on the
W113 Website and won't be back in my office until March 18.  I can
nevertheless give you enough information for a group of you the consider.
 
The progressive rates we selected for Tom Sergeant's order could be used for
a group order ...  six or more sets of 5 springs.  He sure likes his.  When I
owned mine I chose a constant rate sport spring rating as M-B offered back in
the 1960s (it is shown in the service manual), with a 50% stiffer equalizing
spring, and I loved that package.  On an order of six, because it is the club
and there are of course economies in setting up some steps for doing a group,
I would be willing to offer a 33% discount off the $970 retail.  Maybe one of
the W113 restorers would be willing to pick a pair to fill out an order as
that is a better discount than is given to shops on single set order basis.
 
One problem is that if some people are retaining original 80 profile tires
and others use 70 or even 65 profile tires meaning ground clearance could be
critical for some folks.  To accommodate this variable without scuttling the
program, if you pick one tire height as your "standard" (you might find 70
profile the common) and one or two people wanted personalized installed
heights, I'd do those for 20% discount. We'd need at least four sets at one
specification to retain the 33% discount with a total reaching at least six
or more.
 
I don't recommend changing only the front or only the rear if the objective
is better handing, as it will screw up the oversteer/understeer relationship,
unless there is already a problem of that type for vintage racing objectives
that I'd want to address separately when I get back from my traveling.
 
Mit Vollgas (pedal to the metal)!
 
JOHN R. OLSON, INC.
 
 
 
Lawrence Gettleman, DMD, MSD, Professor of Prosthodontics & Biomaterials
School of Dentistry,  University of Louisville, Louisville, Kentucky 40292-0001
   (502)  852-1185   Tel & Fax,   Eastern time,  USA      gettleman@louisville.edu
       Home Tel: (502) 634-1461;   Home Fax (502) 635-5466

[Tom]

Lawrence,

Thank you for passing this information along to the Group. There
has been a lot of discussion regarding these springs on this and
other websites. I would like to say that I am not financially
affiliated with John. My only affiliation is in the love of these
cars. So I think I can speak 1) as a user of the springs and 2)
without the conflict of interest that a financial affiliation would
present:

1. These springs are the best single enhancement I have made to the
car; handling is remarkable and eliminates substantially all of
the "steering play" that many that own our car complain about. The
problem with steering play was not in the steering but in the
suspension being too soft. It also substantially reduces the
forward plunge that occurs during braking.

2. The soft "straight ride" is largely preserved. With these
springs, the major enhancement is in the turns and in stop and go
events, as the springs stiffen in these maneuvers. The springs are
marginally stiffer, so the straight driving ride will be marginally
stiffer than stock springs. I am picky and this has not been a
problem for me.

3.The price that John offers is good if you consider that *if you
try another spring*, you may be unhappy and the cost of going back
to the stock spring or to John's springs on the second attempt would
be more expensive than doing it right the first time. Labor to
switch out the springs is 5-8 hours.

I hope this helps

Tom Sargeant
1971 280 SL(s)

[n/a]

I would be interested in learning more and perhaps joining the group in purchasing at a discount.  

I have Bridgestone 205 70 14 B420's on my car.  I'm assuming the 70 refers to the height of the tire?  IS that right?
 
What's the major difference between the progressive rate and constant rate sport springs?  Are the constant rated springs firmer than the progressive?  Which is the closest to the MB factory originals?
 


Scott
1966, Signal Red, 230SL

[rwmastel]

I love discounts!  I might be in for this deal too.  My finances will have to be examined over the next two or three weeks before I can commit.

Question:  Why does the tire aspect ratio matter?  I think we all have the same overall tire diameter, right?  Aren't these all about the same rolling diameter:

185/80r14
195/75r14
205/70r14

I think these sizes cover 95% of the tires on our cars.  They should all make the car ride at about the same height and therefor allow for the same length springs.  Am I right, or am I missing something?

Will all W113 models take the same springs, or do 230SL and 280SL cars require different ones?  Also, not all of us have the fifth compensating spring in the rear axle, right?  I hope that does not effect our quantity discount.

Thanks,

Rodd
1966 230SL Euro
1994 E420

[George Davis]

Just to leap in here briefly, 'cause I can't help myself:

The 70 in 205/70 is the tire aspect ratio, which means the sidewall is 70% of the tire width.  In this case, sidewall height is 205mm x 0.70 = 143.5 mm.  185/80 and 195/75 come out very close to this as well.

I can't see how the tire aspect ratio would affect spring selection, it's really more important to maintain proper wheel and axle alignment.  Using longer springs to get back to original ride height while using ultra low profile tires would result in the rear wheels tucking under while the front wheels splay out, and could result in some really interesting yet unpleasant handling characteristics.

I think all 113s have the compensating spring.  Some other models used a hydraulic compensating thingamajig, but the BBB indicates this was not used on 113s.

250 SLs and 280 SLs use the same part number springs, don't know about the 230 SLs, though.  If anyone has a 230 SL parts book, maybe they can compare to the 250/280 p/ns, which follow:
front: 113 321 04 04
rear: 113 324 04 04
compensating: 113 329 03 01.

Have fun with the progressive springs; being the regressive type, I'll keep the stockers.



George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual

[hands_aus]

Hey Rodd,
What do you mean "not all of us have the fifth compensating spring in the rear axle, right?"??
Do you have a replacement axle? If you don't have the spring what do you have there?
regards

Bob(Brisbane,Australia)

[rwmastel]

Bob,
I have the stock spring on 230SL, but I thought that during 280SL production they went to the hydraulic compensating device to perform this function.  I don't recall where I read that.  According to George I am incorrect, and I'm fine with that.

Rodd
1966 230SL Euro
1994 E420

[n/a]

Am interested in the progressive rate springs also.  My 65 230SL Automatic sits with the front noticeably lower than the back.  Just replaced the worn shocks front and rear, along with a complete brake redo/replacement and a rebuild on the rear axel.  Had read about the springs earlier from one of the 113 links and have them on my to do list.  Would like the group rate, but wonder about the additional cost of shippment to Hawaii?

Stan
65 230SL

[Cees Klumper]

On the subject of ride height - there are rubber pads on top of the shocks that also affect ride height. So if your car sits lower/higher than appears right, it can be modified by fitting different thicknesses of pads (I believe there are three different sizes, front and rear, and there is an appreciable difference in each successive size). Having said that, though, the springs (which I understand do wear out over time due to fatigue) are a prime suspect as well. I for one have no clue if/when my springs were ever replaced. I will try to find out what the appropriate height is for our cars, measured from the ground.

white 1969 280 SL

[n/a]

More on the subject of ride hieght: cees is referring to the pads on
top of the springs - not the shocks. These are available from MB in
three different sizes: p/n 110 325 02 85 Rubber mounting, 30 mm high,
p/n 110 325 03 85 - 24 mm high, p/n 110 325 04 85 - 18 mm high.
$22.22 CDN each when purchased Oct 02.
m8

[n/a]

Even more on the subject of ride hieght: I neglected to say in my previous post that those p/n's were for the rear springs.
Three sizes also available for front: 20.0mm, 22.5mm, and 32.5mm.
Can suppply p/n's if anyone is interested.
m8

[George Davis]

Cees, I think the MB Tabelenbuch gives ride heights.  I don't have my copy handy right now.

Something to keep in mind is that the ride heights are specified with the original tires.  If the tires on a car have a different height by more than a couple of mm, it is probably better to first have the rear axle alignment correctly set (it's something like 0.5 degrees positive camber with a specified loading).  Once that's set, it establishes the correct height at the rear; then the front can be adjusted to match.  I suspect most members have tires that are close enough, it's just something to watch out for.  Correct alignment should take precedence over correct height.

George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual

[George Davis]

I just stumbled across more information on spring part numbers.  The 250 SL and 280 SL use the same springs all around, as do the later 230 SLs.  The earlier 230 SLs have different part numbers for the front and rear springs (same compensating spring, tho'), but the book says the later springs are to be used as replacements for the early springs.

In short, all 113s use (or can use) the same springs.

This information from the MB Tabellenbuch Personenwagen Ausgabe 1969.

George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual

[Bob G]

If I might add do not do what I did. I guessed when I received john olson's Progressive rate springs only to fine out that had I left the orginal spring pads in 32.5 MM front 18MM rear my 280SL would not have the problem of being too high in the rear 24 mm with dangerous positive camber  and too low in the front 25mm. I orgianly had taked the height specifications and given John the heigh specificatios he requested.options I had AC& Auto shift
For some this is an easy job for me nothing has been easy at lease the first tie around.
And finding a good alignment person to trust who has worked on older Mercedes-Benz like my 1968 280SL is are hard to fine in Los Angeles.
This summer besides a valve adjustment and fixing the right bracket that attaches to the big spring on my soft top are my three things that would make me very happy.It's one headach I want to correct soon.
Bob Geco

[Bob G]

IF I can ad one more peice if informtion. I am running 0n michelin 185 TR 14
rainforce tires the orginal tire is 185 HR 14 80 aspect ratio is this correct? I replaced all the bushing in the rear the two cone bushing that are a pain to remove under the engine bay top plate. I renewed the sway bar bushing . Replaced some worm out bilstein shock all around with new ones and drove  it to let the suspension settle.
I screwed up. Do not guess fine if you can a good Mercededs Mechanic and have a full tank of gasoline and some one your weight and size to sit in the driver side to adjust the difference in height. Also fit the 250 pound hard top and have the spare tire mounted in the trunk.
With this add weight you could dial in the correct setting with just a touch of netivitive camber in the rear and still have plently of clearance for the tireds and the road.
I ma not an expert but I read carfully and listen better so this doen't happen again.
Bob Geco
1968 280SL

[Raymond]

I am in a unique situation.  I bought springs from Coil Springs in Kansas and installed them, and then won a set of Olson Springs at Blacklick.  I can vouch for Coil Springs as a company, and they'll do what you want.  Mine was an experiment.  John Olson has done many experiments on our cars and is WAY out ahead on the knowledge base.  When I spoke to John about my car, he understood that I want crisp cornering above all else.  Someone else may want the original, cushy ride comfort.

Let me say that I enjoy "spirited" driving.  I am running 205/70 Yokohama high performance, all seasons.  Ride, cornering, and braking are affected by the profile of the side wall, and width and style of tread.   I chose for maximum wet-braking and hydroplane resistance.

My first suspension experiment was to get 20% stiffer linear springs up front and Progressive to 20% in the back.  I didn't change the compensator.  At the same time I replaced the pads and all front end rubber and installed Koni Classic adjustable shocks.

The Kansas springs were physically shorter than stock while sitting on the floor but, when installed, were too tall and my ride height looked like an off-road Pagoda.  I cut 1-1/4 linear inches off of each spring and re-installed them.  The front ride height is perfect, the back is a tiny bit low.  

My opinions after driving for a year including our trip on "The Dragon's Tail" are these:  Go with the Koni Shocks!  They are sooo much better than the Bilsteins and you can dial in the ride you want.  Absolutely replace the sway bar rubber and all other rubber parts and seals while you are under there.  

The linear rate sport springs up front are just what I wanted.  The steering response is great and braking nose-dive is greatly reduced.  The car has an understeer that is easily balanced with progressive throttle.  

The progressive springs on the back still provide a nice ride but, compared to the front, seem bouncy.  In a hard corner the progressive rate comes on suddenly.   The springs seem stock until they are substantially compressed and then the traction characteristic of the rear tires changes as the suspension changes from soft to hard.  Seems not as progressive as stepped.  

Armed with this experience, I spoke with John about my Coupe, tires, steering, and ride height.  We agreed that I would be happier with linear rate "sport" springs all around.  I have the set in hand but haven't had the opportunity to swap them.  

If you are going to do a group purchase, you'll all have to agree what kind of performance you want from your car.

Then, get a copy of the PUB 2005 DVD where Jim Villers talks you through changing the front springs.  He doesn't do it the factory way and it's much easier.  I've done the front his way twice now, and it requires two people and deliberate safety awareness.  The front spring tension is impressive!  The rear springs are much easier, but the compensator requires a spring compressor.  Buy the same thickness spring pads you have now.  If you don't know, buy the thinnest and a $6 set of flange gaskets recommended in the video to use as spacers. They work great.  

Just don't be in a hurry, be careful about the power of the compressed spring, and have lots of hand cleaner.  The results will be among the most gratifying things you can do to your Pagoda because you'll appreciate it every time you drive.

Ray
'68 280SL 4-spd Coupe

[dixy2k]

Where do you guys buy the spring pads from?
Is there a trusted shop in LA area that can perform some suspension work on W113's? I don't have the means and knowledge to do the work myself.
Thanks.

[hands_aus]

quote:Originally posted by dixy2k

Where do you guys buy the spring pads from?
Is there a trusted shop in LA area that can perform some suspension work on W113's? I don't have the means and knowledge to do the work myself.
Thanks.

Hi,
You can buy the genuine parts from Caliber Motors in Anaheim.
They are MB parts wholesalers.

Look here for a list of parts suppliers.
http://www.sl113.org/data/show_table.asp?table_name=usr_parts_and_service_suppliers

Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto

[dixy2k]

Thank you.