Author Topic: Re-chroming headlight reflectors  (Read 37751 times)

waqas

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Re-chroming headlight reflectors
« on: April 24, 2008, 14:06:13 »
Hello all,

I remember having a discussion about this with someone at the last PUB, but I couldn't find anything through the search function.

My Euro headlight reflectors are all old and starting to peel. Rather than trade my firstborn for a new Bosch pair, I'd like to have all the reflectors re-chromed.  I can't seem to find a full set of new reflectors (main light, foglight, turn signal, etc) at the usual suppliers.

Has anyone ever had theirs done? Does it come close to original reflectivity? Where was it done?

Thanks in advance for any information.

Waqas in Austin, Texas
Waqas (Wa-kaas) in Austin, Texas

mdsalemi

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Re: Re-chroming headlight reflectors
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2008, 14:47:27 »
Waqas,

It was me you were talking to.  There is a process out there called "Cosmichrome" which emulates vapor-deposition which is the OEM method for creating metalized plastic reflectors.  Understand that this process is a water based system.  Look at the second website provided for examples of the kind of things that they do:

http://www.cosmichrome.com/home.htm
(This is the manufacturer website.)

I believe they license the system and train the installers/applicators.  It can be used on just about any material.  One domestic (the company is in Canada) supplier/licensee is Randy Gummeringer of Chrome and Beyond:

http://www.chromeandbeyond.com/index.html
514 3rd Ave East
West Fargo, ND 58078
USA Tel: 1-701-371-2222
Hours: M-F 8 AM to 5 PM CST
Email: sales@chromeandbeyond.com

I believe this may be the answer to your issue.


Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
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President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America
Michael Salemi
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waqas

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Re: Re-chroming headlight reflectors
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2008, 15:16:36 »
Michael, top-notch information as usual.  I've just sent them an email inquiry.

Thanks again!

Waqas in Austin, Texas
Waqas (Wa-kaas) in Austin, Texas

waqas

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Re: Re-chroming headlight reflectors
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2008, 17:08:20 »
Apparently, their re-chromed surfaces cannot withstand temps above 180.

Anyone have an idea how high these internal headlight temps get to?

Waqas in Austin, Texas
Waqas (Wa-kaas) in Austin, Texas

Garry

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Re: Re-chroming headlight reflectors
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2008, 17:54:09 »
I had a very old chev (29) many years ago and when I went to 'rechrome' the headlight reflectors, I was advised by the chrome platers that chrome will absorb too much light in reflection and they used silver plate that gave a whiter reflection. They did them that way and sealed the finish. Worked wonders.

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Re: Re-chroming headlight reflectors
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2008, 21:10:26 »
There is an add that runs in Hemmings for a company that provides a service for what you are looking for.  I have not used it but kept it on hand in case I ran into a situation like what you have.

www.stevesautorestorations.com  or www.realsteel.com

503-665-2222  They are in Portland, OR.



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Willowbrook, Illinois

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mdsalemi

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Re: Re-chroming headlight reflectors
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2008, 08:41:34 »

Frank--Steve's does re-silvering.  That only works if your base is metal.  I don't have a euro model and can't tell you what Waqas is working with.  If it is like all the plastic reflectors I have, alas it won't work.

Waqas--get yourself a handheld IR temp indicator; run your light and if you can, remove the front lens (or read from the back) and you can then tell what the internal temp is of the reflector.  These little handheld devices are getting less costly all the time.  I've seen them for about $35 on sale.

I should be a bit more clear:  the silver/chrome color used as a reflector on plastic for most reflectors is actually vacuum deposited aluminum.  The process is generally called vaccum deposition, sometimes vapor deposition as the material--aluminum--is converted to a vapor state before it adheres to the plastic substrate (reflector base).

I don't know for certain but I don't know that there are any firms out there that do this on a one-off or custom basis as a business.  However, every production house must be able to do prototypes, else they would never be able to secure a production job!  But whether anyone can convince them of doing something for you, or doing it a price that makes it less costly than simple replacement (aye, there's the rub! ;) )is the real question.  Do a google search or similar for vaccum deposition, thin film coating, aluminum coating and you'll come up with enough places to keep you busy for quite some time.

"In the olden days"--the days of 1932 Fords, etc. the headlamp reflectors were silvered metal--like a mirror.  That's why people like Steve's offer this service to real old hot rod and car enthusiasts.

The Cosmichrome process I talked about isn't really chrome--just a highly reflective paint.  So, it may behave better than true chrome as a reflector, but whether it can withstand the environment of a semi enclosed headlamp, I don't know.

There's another similar process out there, but one available to DIY'ers and hobbyists, and it too, is a paint with a less elaborate installation process then Cosmichrome.  It's called Alclad II.

The Alclad II paints--in many colors including several "silvery" ones--are well known to hobbyists and modelmakers, and are available at many hobby shops and internet retailers.  Here's a link to their website:

http://www.alclad2.com/
email: alclad2@comcast.net

It will take someone willing to experiment with these to determine if they are suitable for the application of headlamp reflector restoration.  They will both most certainly work--but withstanding actual use--heat, cold, moisture, etc. is the real questions.

While I certainly won't re-start the old debate of US-Spec Sealed Beam versus Euro-Halogen's, it is nice to know that my headlamp filament will burn out long before the hermetically-sealed silver reflector begins to show any age...and IF somehow it should, $7 at any auto parts store, Target, K-Mart, etc. makes it like new.  Hmmmm...what on earth were those Feds thinking!!???!!??!?!? ;)   I will admit, the reflectors on the tail lamps were looking less than new--after 39 years, why not?  I replaced them with new (you'd never get into them without major surgery anyway)and hopefully they'll last another 39 years.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
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« Last Edit: April 25, 2008, 08:44:33 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
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waqas

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Re: Re-chroming headlight reflectors
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2008, 09:10:28 »
The base is indeed metal for all three lights (headlamp, fog, turn-signal), but the turn-signal has a little plastic 'lip' insert (which can be removed and doesn't really require anything).

I made an estimate of the cost of re-silvering from here: http://www.stevesautorestorations.com/headlight.php

It looks like each headlamp assembly will probably cost about $250 to re-silver. They are steel and not brass -- I can tell by the surface rust forming under the peeling reflective material. They would also need to be bead-blasted and nickel-plated before re-silvering.

I'll look into getting an IR thermometer to see if cosmichrome will work.

Waqas in Austin, Texas
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66andBlue

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Re: Re-chroming headlight reflectors
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2008, 10:28:00 »
quote:
Originally posted by waqas

 ... It looks like each headlamp assembly will probably cost about $250 to re-silver. They are steel and not brass -- I can tell by the surface rust forming under the peeling reflective material. They would also need to be bead-blasted and nickel-plated before re-silvering.

Waqas,
I wonder have you checked the price for new replacement reflectors? Tom Koellner (who posts here some times as pagode.info) sells a main light reflector for Euro79 and fog light reflector for Euro84 - includes 19% VAT which you don't pay and could make up for shipping costs.
Perhaps US vendors (K&K?) have them too.

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TR

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Re: Re-chroming headlight reflectors
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2008, 12:10:42 »
quote:
Originally posted by mdsalemi

I should be a bit more clear:  the silver/chrome color used as a reflector on plastic for most reflectors is actually vacuum deposited aluminum.  The process is generally called vaccum deposition, sometimes vapor deposition as the material--aluminum--is converted to a vapor state before it adheres to the plastic substrate (reflector base).
Michael Salemi
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Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America



Michael -- Is the vacuum desposition process something that might be used to re-"chrome" the plastic outlet vents on a Frigiking A/C?

Thanks.


Tom in Boise
'71 280SL 4-spd, signal red w/lt. tan interior, restored/enhanced

waqas

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Re: Re-chroming headlight reflectors
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2008, 12:21:35 »
quote:
Originally posted by 66andBlue


Waqas,
I wonder have you checked the price for new replacement reflectors? Tom Koellner (who posts here some times as pagode.info) sells a main light reflector for Euro79 and fog light reflector for Euro84 - includes 19% VAT which you don't pay and could make up for shipping costs.
Perhaps US vendors (K&K?) have them too.

Alfred
1966 blue 230SL automatic



From their online catalog, K&K do not have any individual reflector available.

I've looked at Koellner and SLS, and neither have the turn-signal reflector. I figured if I'm going to the trouble of re-chroming the turn-signal reflectors, then might as well do all of them. Unless the cost doesn't make sense.

Waqas in Austin, Texas
Waqas (Wa-kaas) in Austin, Texas

mdsalemi

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Re: Re-chroming headlight reflectors
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2008, 07:47:37 »
quote:
Originally posted by TR
Michael -- Is the vacuum desposition process something that might be used to re-"chrome" the plastic outlet vents on a Frigiking A/C?

Thanks.

Tom in Boise



Yes Tom, this process is the one used to "metalize" plastic--be it metalized mylar repair tape, or chrome-look logos made of plastic, or the outlet vents you speak of.

I know you love to investigate things--if I needed anything like this done, first I'd get that Alclad II paint and give it a go on some scrap plastic and see how it works/looks.  It sounds less costly than shipping something out to a licensed installer of the Cosmichrome system.  I assume by the nature of your question that your outlets are not up to your standards...

Michael Salemi
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TR

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Re: Re-chroming headlight reflectors
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2008, 11:08:24 »
Thanks Michael. Actually I have two sets of the Frigiking a/c outlet vents...for which I am very grateful to Gernold.  I had one set re-plated/re-deposited a couple of years ago and the three vents came out just great.  But I am not sure the guy is still doing it.  I plan on having the second set re-done before too long...it's always nice to have a backup.  BTW, we are currently in the process of making additional improvements to the air distribution of the Frigiking.  This includes getting stronger a/c flow out of the big, round, adjustable/rotatable chrome outlets at both outside corners of the dash.  As you know, those vents were intended for fresh air, not a/c.  Sure works nicely for some additional distribution of cold air though.
quote:
Originally posted by mdsalemi

quote:
Originally posted by TR
Michael -- Is the vacuum desposition process something that might be used to re-"chrome" the plastic outlet vents on a Frigiking A/C?

Thanks.

Tom in Boise



Yes Tom, this process is the one used to "metalize" plastic--be it metalized mylar repair tape, or chrome-look logos made of plastic, or the outlet vents you speak of.

I know you love to investigate things--if I needed anything like this done, first I'd get that Alclad II paint and give it a go on some scrap plastic and see how it works/looks.  It sounds less costly than shipping something out to a licensed installer of the Cosmichrome system.  I assume by the nature of your question that your outlets are not up to your standards...

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
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President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America



Tom in Boise
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Ken Cox

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Re: Re-chroming headlight reflectors
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2008, 08:25:19 »
HI read your topic for the recroming of the reflectors. Not sure but i seem to remember that croming will not give you full light reflection..

I have a new bosch euro reflector i bought for my 280Sl. It is not the same as my old one so if you are interested i could sell it to yoiu.  $90. us nib.  

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seattle_Jerry

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Re: Re-chroming headlight reflectors
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2008, 02:58:55 »
The hard part will be finding someone that still does secondary operations like vapor deposition in the U.S.

With NAFTA a lot of the injection molding work went to mexico and with it the secondary operation processors. They like to be close to the source of the parts because it saves on shipping.

Although I'd imagine Detroit still has a one or two hanging around as would Massachusetts. There is a border town in Texas that is slipping my mind that does a lot with plastics.

I'd just buy new or get the paint. Its gonna at least be a couple hundred no matter what just for the small lot hassle.

Its always the onesies and twosees guys that complain and end up being more trouble than they are worth so the prices get jacked up.

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mdsalemi

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Re: Re-chroming headlight reflectors
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2008, 07:52:48 »
quote:
Originally posted by seattle_Jerry

The hard part will be finding someone that still does secondary operations like vapor deposition in the U.S.

With NAFTA a lot of the injection molding work went to mexico and with it the secondary operation processors. They like to be close to the source of the parts because it saves on shipping.


Here's just a few that popped up:

http://www.vaculayer.com/
http://www.thinfilmsinc.com/
http://www.pvd-coating.net/
http://www.titaniumfinishing.com/page04.htm

Want a listing of 132 suppliers?  Check here:

http://www.thomasnet.com/products/coatings-vacuum-deposition-16001208-1.html

NAFTA be damned.  There's no shortage of suppliers as you can see.  The challenge would be the same, as Jerry points out--trying to find someone willing to do what amounts to prototype work.  I can guarantee that wouldn't be too hard, particularly with over 100 suppliers.  What will be hard to swallow is the cost to have it done.

As has been pointed out before when discussing things like chrome plating of trim, it is usually less costly to replace something if that something is still available.  The labor for handwork on things like this raise the price to beyond that of replacement.

Another thing to do is to call the high end restorers out there--like RM and others, and ask what they would do.  Maybe they have already had it done somewhere.

Michael Salemi
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Mercedes-Benz Club of America
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seattle_Jerry

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Re: Re-chroming headlight reflectors
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2008, 10:27:22 »
http://www.cvvacuumplaters.com/

Different process and looks like they specialize in automotive restoration stuff.

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mdsalemi

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Re: Re-chroming headlight reflectors
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2008, 10:44:13 »
quote:
Originally posted by seattle_Jerry

http://www.cvvacuumplaters.com/

Different process and looks like they specialize in automotive restoration stuff.

1967 230SL Havana Brown Auto with A/C



Great source Jerry--but it IS indeed the process (aluminum over plastic in a vacuum process) used on production pieces.  Vacuum or vapor deposition.

The trouble on some things--like the one-piece tail lamp assemblies on the 113 is that you need to do major surgery to cut the parts apart to get at the surface that needs to be "plated".

Look at the prices though...it will cost.  Note also on some pages where they list a specific part "No longer doing--available in aftermarket"...providing some validation to the statement about IF the part is available...

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
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« Last Edit: May 01, 2008, 10:48:44 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
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_jaja_

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Re: Re-chroming headlight reflectors
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2008, 17:51:47 »
"The Cosmichrome process I talked about isn't really chrome--just a highly reflective paint. "

The cosmichrome process is actually not paint, it is a layer of silver that gets meshed between a base cost and a topcoat. It is very durable, as durable as OEM paint.

They have a new topcoat out and it is even scratch resistant from what I understand.

Thanks

mdsalemi

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Re: Re-chroming headlight reflectors
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2008, 18:10:17 »
quote:
Originally posted by _jaja_

"The Cosmichrome process I talked about isn't really chrome--just a highly reflective paint. "

The cosmichrome process is actually not paint, it is a layer of silver that gets meshed between a base cost and a topcoat. It is very durable, as durable as OEM paint.

They have a new topcoat out and it is even scratch resistant from what I understand.

Thanks



Good information--I knew it was sprayed on and assumed it was paint, or a paint like process as opposed to true plating or the vapor deposition.

I've seen the results in my hands and it is quite astounding.  How durable it is for our automotive use will take someone needing the results and someone willing to pay the price.

It's nice to know that the guy doing it that I already mentioned is in the automotive business--that's a great start.

Jaja--this is your first post.  Tell us more about what you know about the process!

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2022 Ford Escape Hybrid
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid

_jaja_

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Re: Re-chroming headlight reflectors
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2008, 18:32:36 »
"Jaja--this is your first post.  Tell us more about what you know about the process!"

I have been looking into spray on chroming systems for a few months now and I actually drove 3.5 hours to visit a business that had used the spectrachrome and the cosmichrome systems.

From this persons experience Spectrachrome is an absolute no go. He tried for 6 months and 10's of thousands of dollars and was never able to get a "chrome" finish.

He has been using the cosmichrome system with really good results, its very tricky to use but if you have the time and the money you can make it work. I have also seen the finished products up close and if you put these pieces beside a hard chrome plated piece you cannot tell the difference. A piece that was done properly that is :)

I was impressed with the results and from what I understand they now have clear coats out that are very durable.. I am not a professional painter but I am very interested in this new way to 'chrome' things.

One other point about this type of system is it can 'chrome' almost any substrate of pretty well any size... May be the way of the future in regards to chrome finishings...But that is just my opinion..;)

Eryck

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Re: Re-chroming headlight reflectors
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2008, 10:41:40 »
This won't help anybody here but...

I did chrome my reflectors.  All of them including the blinkers, headlamps etc (Euro).  

I found one of two last chrome shops in HK - due to the pollution, the law etc, all moved up to China.  The shop is pretty 'home made' kind of operation and do mostly toilet taps and small odd pieces for moms and pops.

My car was in bad shape [:0]when I got it so I wanted to get it to look at least presentable 10 feet away.  

Because the guy was a home job kind of a guy, he just chromed it for me, no questions.  Can't tell at all after installation. No idea about heat etc because I don't usually drive the car at night.

He chromed almost everything on my car and cost next to nothing compared to the US, UK or else where.  

So, it's been done and can be done but of course not top notch but will do for now.  One day, I'll change the whole lamp units...and one day, I'll do a bare metal respray...and one day...

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Re: Re-chroming headlight reflectors
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2008, 14:14:43 »
Waqas,

I got very good condition used reflectors a couple years ago.  I think they were from VanDijk in Netherlands.  They were from a Pagoda that was rear-ended.  The price was reasonable, can't recall what it was.  Please check more of our well known suppliers and let them know that high quality used parts are acceptable.

I still have my old reflectors, I will probably get them redone some day with whatever process ends up being the best one to use.

From what Tom Hanson told me back then, MB doesn't sell the Euro headlight parts in the USA anymore.  Maybe not even the whole assemblies?  I bet this is something that will continue to increase in price a lot over time.
Rodd

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