Author Topic: Attorney in Houston Needed for Pagoda owner  (Read 6574 times)

Douglas

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Attorney in Houston Needed for Pagoda owner
« on: June 25, 2007, 10:32:01 »
A friend purchased a badly misrepresented Pagoda from a dealer in Texas, so he's now in the unfortunate situation of seeking redress. He's in NY and the dealer is in Houston, so this requires the services of a Houston-based attorney.

It's a pretty clear-cut case — bogus appraisal, misleading and incomplete pix, dishonest descriptions......

I would love to help this owner out. Anyone know a good attorney down there?

Douglas Kim
New York
USA

Chad

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Re: Attorney in Houston Needed for Pagoda owner
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2007, 13:02:10 »
Don't know of anyone, but as you know, "let the buyer beware."  This is why most of us personally inspect a car, have a knowledgeable friend inspect the car, pay for a professional inspection - this is the way to responsibly purchase a used and antique car.  How many of us have said that. To purchase a car largely based on the seller's representations (which you have not confirmed) is very irresponsible because it seems few people out there are honorable these days.  Litigation in order to make up for irresponsible purchasing, not researching the issues, or even plain stupidity is so popular in our country, isn't it?  

I would suggest your friend take the experience as a lesson, take responsibility for his actions in not discovering this information about the car before he purchased it, and try to sell the car off honestly and purchase the car he really does want (in a responsible way with an inspection).  This is what I did when I was screwed by someone on eBay before - never again.

There is far too little acceptance and personal responsibility in the USA today.  I understand and know where your friend is coming from, because I have been there, but my advice is to suck it up and learn from it so the mistake is not repeated.

Or dare I say actually repair the car faithfully and "put another pretty one back onto the road" - good karma in that, isn't there?

Let the buyer beware. Each and every one of us.

BTW, Douglas does this type of solicitation/message belong in the forum?

1967 230SL
« Last Edit: June 25, 2007, 13:08:02 by Chad »

Douglas

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Re: Attorney in Houston Needed for Pagoda owner
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2007, 13:19:17 »
Chad,

"Personal responsibility" cuts both ways — thieves are not immune to that principle.

How about we hold thieves "responsible" too?

Douglas Kim
New York
USA

Kemal

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Re: Attorney in Houston Needed for Pagoda owner
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2007, 16:35:38 »
So sorry to hear Douglas ,  you cant trust anybody these days .
I some times wonder whether I or we all have the honest car we all went out to buy !
I wish your friend luck with this and future purchases .

Maybe you should mention the culprits on this site to make future buyers weary .

Kemal
280 SL Manual 69

quote:
Originally posted by Douglas

A friend purchased a badly misrepresented Pagoda from a dealer in Texas, so he's now in the unfortunate situation of seeking redress. He's in NY and the dealer is in Houston, so this requires the services of a Houston-based attorney.

It's a pretty clear-cut case — bogus appraisal, misleading and incomplete pix, dishonest descriptions......

I would love to help this owner out. Anyone know a good attorney down there?

Douglas Kim
New York
USA

« Last Edit: June 25, 2007, 16:36:41 by kemal shah »
Kemal
280SL
Manual LHD69

J. Huber

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Re: Attorney in Houston Needed for Pagoda owner
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2007, 16:48:23 »
A couple of thoughts while this is still here -- We all tend to agree with and undertstand the argument for "buyer beware" -- this is so basic that all it really says is "look carefully before you leap." However, there is always a case to be made when something is blatantly fraudulant with "intent to deceive". Depending on the facts in this case, I submit that a good attorney can argue it successfully.

James
63 230SL
James
63 230SL

Douglas

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Re: Attorney in Houston Needed for Pagoda owner
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2007, 18:52:01 »
quote:
Originally posted by J. Huber

A couple of thoughts while this is still here

James
63 230SL



I would hope this thread isn't going to be deleted.

Chad asked if this posting is appropriate for the forums and I strongly believe it is. This is a fellow enthusiast looking for help, plain and simple. It's not at all unlike when owners ask for a recommendation for a mechanic or restoration shop.

Douglas Kim
New York
USA

J. Huber

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Re: Attorney in Houston Needed for Pagoda owner
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2007, 19:59:54 »
I hear ya Douglas -- anything pagoda-related is legit if you asked me...

James
63 230SL
James
63 230SL

Chad

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Re: Attorney in Houston Needed for Pagoda owner
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2007, 21:13:05 »
The overriding point being that it's of the highest importance to have an inspection of the car by a professional, or your personal inspection if you are in the know.  Many people search this forum for info when they are interested in purchasing one of these cars, and some ask questions.  Ebay and long distance deals of all sorts are popular for many new buyers because these cars are not located on every block.  These cars come in a wide range of states of disrepair and excellence.  Perhaps strongly cautioning people to be aware of and take care of problems before they buy a w113 is the most useful information to publish regarding this common situation.  This is the point.

Responsible buyers become happy owners.  Happy owners are the ones that own and keep these cars in good states of repair and on the road.
I apologise for advocating responsibility and stressing the importance of knowing what you're getting before you buy.  I am sorry, but as a buyer of cars I believe the responsibility rests on the shoulders of the buyer as he contemplates writing out that check.

I for one will never let myself be burned again by those dealers/sellers out there that are dishonorable and selling to buyers from long-distance or whatever the situation. Have bought many cars since and have inspected every square inch and weighed exactly what I felt it was worth.  Each disappointment is a learning opportunity.

Practically speaking, with the purchase of antique automobiles, it is very difficult to fight on misrepresentation of condition, or expectation as it really is.  Also, a lawyer might help (unlikely, and at a cost of $$$$) in this case, but a lawyer can not help him be a more informed buyer and enthusiast and have success if he tries to buy another w113 or other antique-ish car.  Only education and diligence will.

I was quite relaxed about purchasing a w113 and did little research, mostly because w113 are comparatively common cars and do not cost as much as the others.  But I got very lucky, I think.  I was very unlucky with another older Alfa. But now the more I learn about this model the more I believe that I will be more uptight about inspection if I should buy another, just as uptight as when buying a classic Aston Martin (very uptight), or other comparatively rarer car.  The systems are complex, and the pitfalls many.  Fortunately we have a ready supply of spares for most of the car should we need it.

The more a buyer learns about these cars, or any other cars, other Mercedes, Astons, etc, the more that the buyer will be able to spot problems and inconsistencies with eBay ads (notorious) and other ads and also when inspecting/testing the cars in the flesh.

Again, let the *smart* buyer beware, and don't count on the busted, irrational and expensive legal system to bail you out.  Know what you are buying, never trust photos, never trust an eBay auction without supplemental evidence, never trust an advertisement without supplemental evidence - this is what I think is helpful to stress.

Nothing wrong with approaching the purchase of a home the same way, or a new automobile.  This has been my advice on these matters every single time.


1967 230SL
« Last Edit: June 25, 2007, 21:38:15 by Chad »

J. Huber

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Re: Attorney in Houston Needed for Pagoda owner
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2007, 21:26:48 »
Hi Chad. Good advice. Your points are all well-taken -- and its a bummer you were a victim to the crooked side of man. Don't apologize for advocating that one take responsibility -- I think mine and Douglas's only point was we need to have the scoundrels out there take their share of responsibility as well.

James
63 230SL
James
63 230SL

Chad

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Re: Attorney in Houston Needed for Pagoda owner
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2007, 21:42:24 »
Yes, I got taken years ago on an Alfa Giulietta Spider Veloce.  A relatively bargain of an antique car, but still very annoying to find it so misrepresented.  I decided never again.
But I didn't go to the courts and I didn't go Tony Soprano over it... What I did was restore the car to factory specs and feel very good about putting it back onto the road again.  Not because I am masochistic, but because I was an enthusiast of that car at the time and I wanted to save that car in my hands from the crusher.

It's strange the insignificant things we find ourselves idealistic for over the years, such as old cars.  Each year I get ever more practical and now I have no interest in repairing decades of automobile neglect.  So each car I buy now I check it out and make sure there's no or very little rust, if possible.

Having been too long-winded here already, I will just add that this thread became more useful and universally applicable than it was intended from the original posting.  It should not be deleted as such.

1967 230SL
« Last Edit: June 25, 2007, 21:57:21 by Chad »

69280sl

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Re: Attorney in Houston Needed for Pagoda owner
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2007, 22:32:21 »
Douglas: It would not be a bad idea to have your friend talk to a NY lawyer. The Texas dealer would probably not defend against a NY suit and you friend could get a default judgment. This puts him about where he would be in winning a suit in Texas, ie collecting on such judgement out of state.

I had a similar circumstance which ended up almost o.k., I had to eat some of the legal fees.

Gus  68  280sl
Gus

68 280sl, signal red/ beige/black softtop. Car # 1084

69280sl

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Re: Attorney in Houston Needed for Pagoda owner
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2007, 22:32:58 »
Douglas: It would not be a bad idea to have your friend talk to a NY lawyer. The Texas dealer would probably not defend against a NY suit and your friend could get a default judgment. This puts him about where he would be in winning a suit in Texas, ie collecting on such judgement out of state.

I had a similar circumstance which ended up almost o.k., I had to eat some of the legal fees.

Gus  68  280sl
Gus

68 280sl, signal red/ beige/black softtop. Car # 1084

doitwright

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Re: Attorney in Houston Needed for Pagoda owner
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2007, 22:38:56 »
I am finding myself agreeing with Chad.  I feel I got the short end also when i bought my 280SL last November.  Although as much as I am bitter about being lied to, I did make the decision to complete my transaction, drove the car 800 miles home and through the help of this forum, feel somewhat comforted that, like in construction, there are no problems, only challenges and situations that must be dealt with.  Yes some challenges cost money. Big money.  But if this forum has revealed anything, it is that this is no cheap toy.  At some point you will pay.

I know I learned a valuable lesson and now that I am doing most of my work on the SL myself, I appreciate the car even more.  Try to find the silver lining.  Vindication takes time and money too. And with the distance involved that makes it even more of a headache. Douglas' friend may not have gotten what he bargained for, but in the long run, if he keeps the car, it may be the best thing that could have happened.  I know from now on I will never believe anything I hear or read and only half of what I see.  And that applies to Pagoda's and just about everything else.

Frank Koronkiewicz

1970 280SL Light Ivory
1972 911 Targa
Frank Koronkiewicz
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Douglas

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Re: Attorney in Houston Needed for Pagoda owner
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2007, 06:53:15 »
I'm not sure I follow what's being debated here. Should people be educated when they make purchases? Absolutely. Should sellers who misrepresent cars be allowed to get off scot-free? Absolutely not.

The buyer attempted to do the right thing by relying on an independent local inspection/appraisal (for almost $30K) that turned out to be completely false. When the car arrived, it was mechanically and structurally a basket case, right down to a busted valve.

Frankly, if it were me, I would be tempted to "go Tony Soprano."

Douglas Kim
New York
USA

mdsalemi

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Re: Attorney in Houston Needed for Pagoda owner
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2007, 07:08:42 »
Douglas,

You wouldn't expect this to go by without MY opinion, now would you?? ;)

I've been preaching this for a long time: do NOT buy a Pagoda, ever, without personal inspection from he/she who is paying for it--period.  This is not an opinion; it's a factual statement and the horror story here and others we've heard about are QED.  If you do, and you are burned, caveat emptor.  BUT, that being said does not excuse the seller.  The seller should be made to pay, big time, and for more then the trouble he has caused.  And enough with my Latin.

Now, I'm no attorney but I do know that certain states have "long arm" statutes.  More often then not if you have an issue with a seller in Dubuque, you need to go do Dubuque to sue them.  But in the states with "long arm" statutes (coincidentally, Iowa IS one of them--don't ask me here how I know that  :( )you often don't have to go any further then your friendly county court house and local attorney.

So, the advice on speaking with a NY attorney is sound and sage.  NY does have a long-arm statute, but whether it can be applied here is for an attorney in NY to decide.  Your friend should arm himself with this:

http://www.nysba.org/Content/NavigationMenu/Attorney_Resources/Bar_Journal/Bar_Journal_Archive/2000_Archive/bauchner.pdf

and this:

http://www.kentlaw.edu/perritt/courses/civpro/ny-longarm.html

and find himself a friendly local attorney in NY to give him some advice.

There's an awful lot of Pagodas and other "collectibles" (whew I almost put Classic there!) being sold by these "dealers" all over the place, and it's kind of annoying.  I don't mind someone providing value added and paying for it, but we often hear of what amounts to value subtracted.


Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
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Michael Salemi
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Douglas

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Re: Attorney in Houston Needed for Pagoda owner
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2007, 11:22:52 »
Someone was kind enough to send a referral to me via e-mail, so I think my friend now has a resource that's suitable.

Many thanks to everyone for the kind of spirited back-and-forth that I've come to expect here in the forums. We're a good group that's always inclined to help fellow enthusiasts and for that I'm genuinely grateful.

Douglas Kim
New York
USA

rob walker

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Re: Attorney in Houston Needed for Pagoda owner
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2007, 23:55:39 »
Douglas, I would still mention the traders name here so that at least others can be forewarned and ensure if they wish to do business with this individual they take extra care. There has in the past been unscrupulous traders highlighted here.

Rob Walker
1968 280SL papyrus white/green leather
Spain and Turkey