Engine number vs. chassis number

[desousa]

Hi,
My first post….
Just bought a 1964 LHD 230 SL.
Chassis number 113.042-10-005062
Engine number 127.981-10-013754

The engine number seems to indicate that it is much more recent than the car, i.e. the original engine was replaced at some point.
Correct? Any way to estimate the engine date of manufacture?
Thank.
Jose

[mdsalemi]

Do you have the original Data Card? This will tell you the information regarding the engine number and whether its original to the car. You can purchase these from the Classic Center in Germany.

I don't know that there is as comprehensive a list indicating engine serial numbers keyed to manufacture dates like there is VIN to manufacture date.

Much of the detail on these kinds of things is in our Technical Manual, which you can view if you are a full member.

[Jonny B]

Jose,

Welcome to the group, and I will echo Michael's comment about joining as a full member. For $30 you have access to the full data base and technical manual. You also would receive Pagoda World magazine (twice a year) and Pagoda Notes newsletter four times a year.

The issue of engine numbers and date can get very complicate very quickly. You can try the "Search" functionality (fourth item to the right of "Home")

I used "Engine Number" with the quotes - that limits the search to those two words together. I got ten pages of hits, so this is regularly search. You can look through the first page or two to get an idea about the difficulties with finding the date.

The best arbiter is to get a copy of the data card from MB to get the car codes as it left the factory. You should be able to get that through the dealer. There is a fee of about $150 - don't know if they charge the same amount in Euros though.

[mauro12]

I believe that there is no direct connection between vin and engine number but maybe I’m wrong . It’s a pity that now is on payment the data card . I got it in 2017 and was totally free. 150€ seems a bit too much .

[BobH]

Hello Jose, in the technical manual there is a register of members cars with VIN's, and some have their engine numbers listed.  You can search the engine number column for one with a number close to yours and this will give you a date close to the year of manufacture of your engine.  The columns are sortable to make the search easier.  Don't forget to look at only the 127.981-10- engines

[rwmastel]

Congratulations on your purchase. You've found your new favorite website!

If originality and history are interesting or important to you, then buy the data card. It has lots of info you will like to know, including the original engine number. Maybe buy from Classic Center, maybe from local dealer?

Chassis and engine numbers are not supposed to be the same.

Get acquainted with search feature on this forum, we've been online 20 years!

[Pawel66]

You have to remember that the engine numbers sequence is separate for manual and automatic. They will always be more or less apart, depending on proportion between automatic and manual cars being ordered in given period of time.

So yes - your engine can come from your car even though the numbers are far apart. However, as advised, it is best to obtain datacard form dealers (Classic Center, I think, no longer deals with them). Yes, you have to pay some fee for that, but it is worth it.

It is also more than worth it to pay small fee here and have access to experts and all the secrets of these beautiful cars.

[Jordan]

Jose, as mentioned, get the data card which will confirm the correct engine number for your car.   That being said I would guess you have a 230SL engine from late 1966.  Your original engine number will probably be less than your VIN, that is the last 6 digits will be less than 005062.  I would guess your original engine's last digits would be somewhere between 004400 and 004600.

[MikeSimon]

You have to remember that the engine numbers sequence is separate for manual and automatic. They will always be more or less apart, depending on proportion between automatic and manual cars being ordered in given period of time.

This being correct, Pawel, it supports the fact that his engine number should be "lower" than the chassis number. While the VIN numbers did NOT have two separate sequences, they run higher in the serial number than the engine number, which had two separate sequences.

[Pawel66]

That is true, you're right.

When you scroll through the Car Register - in 95% of cases it is that engine number is lower than chassis number, although sometimes the differences are surprisingly huge.

There, however, examples of engine number being higher (I did not look through to the very end of the Register):

113.042 20 000289   127.981 20 005740   

113.042 10 010333   127.981 10 012501

Probably some kind of swaps - I have no idea. Datacard is necessary to understand this.

[Mike Hughes]

Of course, the possibility of swaps exists.  Equally possible is that a quantity of "127.981.10" and "127.981.12" engines were withdrawn from production to provide future warranty spares in preparation for the changeover from 230SL to 250SL . . .

[Pawel66]

Yes, some kind of factory inventory management case crossed my mind as well, but did not want to speculate. Some stock re-manufacturing due to demand change also cross my mind - there can be 1000 explanations.

I think to find out we would need:
1. Datacard. But knowing there are mistakes in datacards -
2. Picture of the number on the engine block (actual number and style it is stamped)
3. Info on presence, picture of Tauschagregat plate
4. Picture of stamped VIN
5. Car VIN plate
6. Paint code plate would not harm either (aufbau vs. vin)

Then we would have it cross-checked left and right.

[john.mancini]

Welcome Jose and congratulations on your 230SL.  These are great cars and this is the best collector car forum on the planet. I echo my fellow members' sentiment.........become a full time member. You'll find the most helpful information and the friendliest group of people who have a wealth of knowledge.

It was not uncommon for MB to perform engine block replacements back in the day. I'm sure it's much less common today. That being said, I would agree that your data card will provide you the answers pertaining to your engine number.

Good luck with your 230SL. I have a 65 230SL.

John

[rwmastel]

I think to find out we would need:

We need Jose to check back in with us!  I think new members posting for first time don't realize how active the group is and how many replies they will get in 48 hours, or even 6 hours!

[MikeSimon]

One other thing that makes me think: The engine serial number is over 13,000. Considering that there are two sequences, one for manual trans - 10- and one for AT -02 -, and that a little over 20,000 230SLs were made, it seems strange that there were over 13,000 manual transmission engines? Maybe it is a (not-so) clever e-stamp?

[Pawel66]

Indeed odd… have not thought about it. Difficult to figure out without more data points…

[DavidAPease]

it seems strange that there were over 13,000 manual transmission engines?

I believe that I have read that the vast majority of 230SLs were manual transmission.  For example, my '66 automatic is chassis (VIN) number 015461 (more than 3/4 of the way through the entire run of 230s), yet my engine number is only number 003868.  Presumably, this means that there were already around 11,600 manual transmission engines built by early 1966. 

So, maybe not so strange.

            -David

[Garry]

My auto Sept 1965 VIN 12948 has engine number 2801 as per data card giving further weight to the idea.

[AdelaidePagoda]

Another data point: Mine is manual Jan 64 VIN 2101 and Engine 1982

[BobH]

I read on another forum that an estimated 70% of 230's were manual, which calculates to around 13,880 cars.  The highest manual trans engine number i can find after a quick look on the registry is engine number 14725 on VIN 19694, this is a 1966 car, so possibly a replacement engine.  Perhaps there were slightly more than 70%, even accounting for engine replacements over the years

[Jordan]

I read on another forum that an estimated 70% of 230's were manual, which calculates to around 13,880 cars.  The highest manual trans engine number i can find after a quick look on the registry is engine number 14725 on VIN 19694, this is a 1966 car, so possibly a replacement engine.  Perhaps there were slightly more than 70%, even accounting for engine replacements over the years

I think that engine number is correct for that car.  My VIN is about 1000 less and my engine number is 14145.  That 230SL is only 43 cars from the last 230SL.  If we subtract the engine number from the VIN, we get 4969, which is probably about the number of automatics that were made.  So about 75% of the 230SL's would have been manual.  It's a simplistic way of calculating but probably pretty accurate.

[BobH]

Hello Marcus, that's correct, now i check again the car was a December 66 build, only a  month away from end of production

[desousa]

Thank you all. I now have a copy of the data card and the original engine was 4402, which seems correct for chassis 5062.
This means of course that the engine in the car (13754) is a later replacement.
No wonder it is in such a great shape.
But I had to get a new cold start thermostat, which goes for a pornographic price…

[Pawel66]

May I ask: did you obtain the datacard form the dealer or some other way - just so that we know?

Well, you may get used to obscene prices for some of the components...

If I may suggest - always check the prices at the dealers as well. You have your thermostat in Niemoeller's at EUR 800 plus and at Mercedes for ca EUR 780.

[desousa]

Thank you for your comments Pawel66.
Data card copy came with the car. I just did not have it with me when I posted…
Yes, I paid £780, so typical obscene price…

[Pawel66]

I see, thank you!

[zoegrlh]

Jose, welcome to our Pagoda Group. You will find a wealth of knowledge about the Pagoda with this group. You were questioning if your motor was the original. As John stated if you motor was replaced by MB in Germany, you will have a tag on the block that will say Original Mercedes Benz, tauschaggregan, with a number of the engine 130—————, and then the Tigi Nr. (Engine block/serial number).  If you have this tag you have a replacement engine, which does not cheapen the value of he SL, because it was put in/replaced by Mercedes Benz..
By the way, we just came back from Porto, what a wonderful city, and great wine. One of the best trips we have taken. Portugal is a hidden Jewel. Bob

[desousa]

Thanks Bob.
Shhh don’t tell anyone… otherwise it will soon become another tourism mecca…
You are very welcome next time you visit us.
Jose

[Pawel66]

I was there as well and I liked it a lot! I am more a vodka drinker, but wine was not the only attraction! Will never forget the cruise down the Porto river (we used all vodka supply, they stopped the ship and bought some at the supermarket).

Beautiful architecture!

[John Betsch - "SADIE"]

One more data point to add to the collection:

my '65 230SL (German Market) which I have been told would be considered mid run:

VIN: 010662
Automatic
Delivery: 5/17/1965
Engine Number: 2173 (and luckily number on engine matches data card)

[Benz Dr.]

Matching numbers, or in this case engine numbers, are kind of like " classic cars." It's a thing that has certain meaning but has been locked on to by the car collecting crowd. On cars that can be cloned, which are rare and valuable, it means everything, that, or they're million+ cars and those things do matter. On our 113's, options aside from model, condition, year, and perhaps colour, would be one of the few things that make one car worth more than another, all other things being equal.

Given the fact MB dealers were instructed to stamp the original engine number into a new replacement block, what does matching numbers mean to a mass produced fairly common car? Is it nice to have? Sure. Is it going to bring you more at auction?

( Roll MS in 3....2....1 )

[john.mancini]

Dan, I could not agree with you more. As I watch my newest form of entertainment, Bring a Trailer, I see bidders more concerned about W113 matching engine numbers than overall car condition. BIG mistake. You really can't "forge" a Pagoda like they do with 57 Corvette Fuelies or 67 Corvette 427's. With Pagodas, you only got one engine choice each year. That was it. So............who cares if it's the original block?? Just give me a nice straight, never rusted, never hit Pagoda.

[MikeSimon]

That's not the point, Gentlemen. I think there is definitely some value to a car that has a number pairing that falls into the "original" category. You can still mess up an 280SL by putting a 2.8L block/motor in that does not belong in the car, i.e.: a 280SE block or an early 2.8L motor in a late car. Unless it is properly documented to me it is a sign of "tampering" and trying to present something that is not there.

[Benz Dr.]

That's not the point, Gentlemen. I think there is definitely some value to a car that has a number pairing that falls into the "original" category. You can still mess up an 280SL by putting a 2.8L block/motor in that does not belong in the car, i.e.: a 280SE block or an early 2.8L motor in a late car. Unless it is properly documented to me it is a sign of "tampering" and trying to present something that is not there.

Fair enough.  How much more would you be willing to pay at auction for such a 113?

Tampering? All of these cars have been tampered with. Unless you can find a low miles, original owner, who only worked on their car, it's almost a unicorn these days.

[MikeSimon]

Semantics, Dan. If I would be in the market for a W113, I would want to find a car that is not being misrepresented and is as original as possible. yes, I would pay more for a 280SL that has a 130-983 motor than for one with a 130-980.

[zoegrlh]

I agree with Dan, if the replacement engine was put in by MB, and particularly by MB( in Europe MB garages are owned by MB) then it’s a no brainer that the replacement is A OK, and done well to MB specs. But yes, the Pagoda would not be an example of a SL from factory assembly line. However, any of those prestigiously restored Pagodas are in fact not exactly the same care that came off the assembly line. So numbers might mean a lot to the collector, they are missing the boat if they are waiting for perfect car to come across the auction block. What will the market bring, it’s all c about timing, buyers in the market, financing rates, etc. if I was to sell my SL, I C don’t think I would use BAT, heard too much negative comments about it. I think that buyers trend to write negative comments about your car, so as to keep the bidding lower. That’s what I’ve been told. Anyway that’s my two cents. Bob