Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: rbouch8828 on April 02, 2017, 21:57:28
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I am planning to disassemble the engine bay, removing the engine, and front suspension, to repaint and chromate parts and areas that need it. However, I would like to try to establish a system for keeping track of parts as I remove them so I will know where they belong when I have to put things back together.
I am particularly concerned about the huge number of parts that need to be sent out for chromatin as I have seen a photo (copy below) that shows trays full of small parts, without any way to keep track of them individually.
How have others resolved this problem?
Best,
Roland
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Hi Roland:
I have seen when a large number of parts are sent out, like in the picture. You probably will not get them all back, especially small parts.
So inventory all parts, and make sure the plating Co gets a copy. Good luck.
Tom
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Be sure to take loads of photos. Both before you remove items and just after you remove them. You might even go so far as to use flash cards with numbers and location written on them to use when taking pictures. Parts seem to look different when off the car.
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Hi Roland,
Boy, I screwed up that attempt at posting. I typed one incomplete sentence and posted it by mistake so I deleted it.
Here goes another attempt.
I don't think I've ever shared my method for tracking the "approximately 1600 parts" that I sent out for CAD plating. As I removed parts from my car during the restoration "disassembly", I decided to limit the size of each "batch" of parts that I removed. I've shown two photos of the first "batch" of parts removed.
The first photo is of Batch 1 parts laid out on a white quilt. As I laid them out, I created a hand written spreadsheet (the second photo) to identify each part. Beside each part on a copy of the first photo, I identified the page number and line number of the part from the spreadsheet. A note like P1L15 on the photo means Page 1 Line 15 on the spreadsheet. On the spreadsheet, I also identified the part by "what it is", "where it goes", "what it does", "how many identical parts it is" and its/their dimensions. Later, I redid the spreadsheets in the computer.
I ended up with about 13 Batches of parts and about 15 pages of the spreadsheet. The difference is because there were different numbers of spreadsheet lines for each batch.
Finally, before shipping the parts off for CAD plating, I put all the parts in buckets together then cleaned them. I decided to "bite the bullet" and depend on the Batch photos and Spreadsheet descriptions to sort them out when they came back.
It's not a perfect system but when they came back, I was able to sort out the parts into their original batches (mostly) and have almost worn out the copies of the photos and spreadsheets doing so.
To study the details of how the Batch photos are identified and how the parts are identified in the spreadsheet, you may have to copy the photos and enlarge them. There were times that I even used a magnifying glass on the photos to identify details of the parts during the sorting process after CAD plating.
If I had it to do again, I would take more "before removal" photos to go with the "Batch" photos. That would help to identify the parts even better.
Good Luck
Tom Kizer
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Thank you all. Great suggestions.
The spreadsheet/photo approach seems to be a good one. What year/model was that for?
Best,
Roland
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Photo everything before, during and after disassembly.
Roughly every 10 items (which might be 50 photos), create a file on your PC and upload those pictures to that file and name the file as first 10. The number should be the exact number of parts so that when you have photographed everything you will know exactly how many parts you have given to the platers.
Repeat every 10 (or 15 or 20, whatever you think is right for you) and then assemble all of the first 50 pieces on a white background and take a group photo which you should save into a file called batch 1, 2 for the 2nd group of 50 etc...
When you get your parts back you can sort them into the batches and then individual groups and you will immediately know if anything is missing.
Re-assembly can then be done in batches and in reverse order where advantageous.
Don't forget to bill yourself at your local specialist's labour rate so you know how much you can spend on your next treat for the wife.
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I use a notebook and photographs, not quite as precise as Toms method, but fast and easy. Take the parts off, lay them on a notebook page and write a description with as much detail as you wish. Photograph the page and move on. You can even record the dimensions of the hardware on the pages if you wish.
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Another example............
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Very good additional input!
Thanks very much,
Roland
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Hi Joe,
Thanks very much for sharing your approach. Very helpful idea.
Kind regards,
Roland
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By taking a picture of each lay-out, you can assemble an encyclopedia of pictures with all of the parts and hardware to assembly later. A photo of each assembly before dis-assembly is also helpful.
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The thing about doing small batches is that you pay for small batches. Done all at once is more cost effective. I can tell where just about everything goes so I don't use pics but I see where they can be useful.
Do enough of these things and they start to follow you around in your sleep.
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Roland,
I have now used this company (http://www.detrayplating.com/aerospace_fasteners.html) three times for cadmium plating and they have never lost a part, even the tiniest ones. One thing Joe A. told me is to string the very small parts together - he suggested on a colored pipe cleaner - to alert the manager to look out for these small parts.
How to know where the parts go when they come back? It sure helps to have Joe looking over your shoulder! ;D
But eventually the pile gets smaller compared to what you see in my photo that you posted earlier!
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More good tips!
Thanks again Joe,
Best,
Roland
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That must be frightening!
I wish I had your experience. I look at the engine bay and get nightmares without even falling asleep!
Thank for the tip on doing larger batches.
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Roland,
I have now used this company (http://www.detrayplating.com/aerospace_fasteners.html) three times for cadmium plating and they have never lost a part, even the tiniest ones. One thing Joe A. told me is to string the very small parts together - he suggested on a colored pipe cleaner - to alert the manager to look out for these small parts.
How to know where the parts go when they come back? It sure helps to have Joe looking over your shoulder! ;D
But eventually the pile gets smaller compared to what you see in my photo that you posted earlier!
Thanks for the reference and pipe cleaner tip. I wish I were in Ohio, or I had someone here in eastern MA to look over my shoulder.
Best,
Roland
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You can also use a bare tag wire to wire small nuts and washers together in a group. They will plate everything including the tag wire. Watch out for lock washers, they can slip off a wire.
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You can also use a bare tag wire to wire small nuts and washers together in a group. They will plate everything including the tag wire. Watch out for lock washers, they can slip off a wire.
That's also a good suggestion. Hadn't thought about the lock washers though. Thanks for that tip!
Best regards,
Roland
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I can tell by looking at Alfred's photos that I did not clean my old parts well enough. DeTray did my plating also, but my parts, on the whole, don't look as good as Alfred's. Like Alfred said, they didn't lose even one part.
Tom Kizer
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I can tell by looking at Alfred's photos that I did not clean my old parts well enough. DeTray did my plating also, but my parts, on the whole, don't look as good as Alfred's. Like Alfred said, they didn't lose even one part.
Tom Kizer
So they don't clean them, we have to clean them before sending them in? What type of cleaning is recommended?
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Kerosense and stiff brass/stainless brush is what I used on each part. About 10 gallons of Kerosene, 3 buckets - one bucket to soak overnight, one bucket to scrub, and one bucket to soak the parts after scrubbing. Did this way twice and they turned out really nice. And lots of gloves.
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We soak greasy parts in solvent overnight ( or longer ) until any grease will wash off. After drying for a couple of hours I place them in a blast cabinet and remove any rust or old paint. After I have them cleaned I use a soft wire brush on an electric motor until it buffs up to a nice gloss. This is when plating really turns out nice.
There several parts that you never want to plate unless you can close off any open ports or holes. Vacuum cell on the distributor, dash pot on the throttle linkage, fuel injectors, barometric compensater on the IP, CS solenoid, trans kick down solenoid, CSV solenoid, vacuum switch over valve on late 280SL and probably a few other items. Anything electrical should be painted with gold paint which is a fairly close match. Other non electrical items can be plated only if done carefully and any internal plating solutions can be removed quickly afterwards with compressed air.
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While I was reading Alex D. and Benz Dr's comments about cleaning parts for plating, I was shaking my head yes, then no, then yes again. Yes because I agreed and no because I didn't know those things before I started this restoration. Even my old Ferrari was mostly clean parts.
I know now all that you two just said, but not because you said it. I learned it by experience and seeing less than desirable results, mostly during this Pagoda restoration.
I'm not quite compulsive/obsessive, but I do tend to spend too much time nit-picking spreadsheets and the Pagoda manuals.
My ignorance was the result of working only with new parts in the auto industry until after retirement. The garage floors were dirtier than the parts we used. My development engineer's tool kit was a foam lined 4" thick leather briefcase. Life was good - too good, apparently.
Good experience builds character and confidence. Bad experience builds only ignorance and over-confidence.
Oh well, if I had started my restoration sooner, I would have learned sooner, but no less painfully.
Tom Kizer
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Great advice here from all of you Gentlemen. ;)
I was concerned in the beginning too, Roland. :o
But I just collected the little parts as they came off during disassembly and stored them in zip bags . 8)
Especially, I put a note with the Mercedes work job group number (e.g. "Gr. 25 clutch"), small description and date on it.
Later, before re-plating all of the batches, I placed the content of each bag on millimeter paper and took pictures of it. Without my digi cam this would not have been possible. 100s of pics ...!
Sometimes I even printed out the pics - in supersized manner in order to sort the replated parts back to their individual assembly group. ;D ???
You do interchange a part here and there ...; especially there are bolts that are 22 mm long, others 25 mm long .... This can be very confusing.
But on the long run, it was not much of a problem.
It was very helpful to have a couple (plenty) of extra standard parts and bolts.
I had (and still have) all metric parts (M4, M5, M6, M8, M10, etc.) stored in assortment boxes and with the help of surplus materials of the standard bolts, washers and nuts
it was all-in-all a very nice and positive re-assembly experience. :D ;D
Looking very much forward to doing this again in the future ... ;) :D ;D
Best,
Achim
(gascap, nuts&bolts collector)
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Interesting to see what others do. I like the idea of putting small nuts and flat washers on a metal wire tie. I have had small washers and things lost. Luckily nothing irreplaceable. I tend to make my own drawings of components and detail particular features of that component that indicates orientation or mounting position. I also measure each bolt or hardware similar to Tom and put it on a sheet. Kind of a comforting feeling to know with precision where everything goes. To this date, I have never had the dreaded "leftover" nut or bolt.
One item I question is the re-plating of lock washers. It is well known that springs must be treated for hydrogen embrittlement after plating. If not they can snap during service. Lock washers are springs in effect. I have had two cases where re-plated lock washers broke after installation. So now I just use new ones. For the most part, split lock washers are not unique and easily obtained.
Any thoughts?
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You most certainly CAN plate electrical parts like cold start valve solenoid but you MUST get them back as soon as they are plated and soak them in light oil (diesel works well) to prevent corrosion of the internal parts. I had to learn the hard way but believe me it is entirely possible. Injection pipes should be treated similarly or anything else that might have an orifice. You can even have your fuel pipes plated, the process doesn't harm the rubber.
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Thanks to all for the additional suggestions about your cleaning and storage approaches. Everyone has been so helpful in offering their experiences and recommended approaches. I really appreciate all of the suggestions.
Is there anyone in MA with an Engine hoist they'd like to rent or sell?
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How do you decide which parts are to be plated? Is it every nut, bolt and washer? What about other parts? What is the deciding factor?
Best,
Roland
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Simple. If it was plated before, plate it again!
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Simple. If it was plated before, plate it again!
Not everything that was previously plated still has its plating showing.
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That is why people crave factory and original engine bay pictures. There are several people on this site who have such pictures and are a good guide. In general, Mercedes never had exposed parts that were bare steel and would rust unlike US cars of the same era. Either painted, plated or aluminum.
Might be a good idea to start a file in the tech section for such documented original or factory pictures. Is there one now?
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Might be a good idea to start a file in the tech section for such documented original or factory pictures. Is there one now?
I agree, that would be great info to have and fall back to.
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Btw, with the support of the members, I would be willing help generate a file for the tech manual.
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Thank you for offering to do that. You might PM one of the Pagoda board members and get their suggestions on how to start and if there is interest. I would think you would want to start a new thread asking for submission of original pictures and or factory images that would be helpful. Maybe limit it to engine bay, drivetrain, etc.. Mostly mechanical items.
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Dirk,
Any Full Member is able to amend or add to the Technical Manual. I agree that this would be a fine addition to the manual and no doubt others on the Board would also agree. This is the only way the Tech Manual is populated, by Members adding the info over time.
Have a look at the area on the left hand side of the Tech Manual where is says PmWIKI and the items below. You can play around with it in what is called the WIKI Sandbox to practice before actually working live with the document.
Meanwhile Other Board may like to also comment here.
Garry
Membership Administrator
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Garry,
I will take wwheelers advice and start a new thread, collecting information, pictures.......
I will probably create the file offline first and later transfer it to the manual if found useful.
Dirk
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Dirk,
I think the idea is good. What you should try to achieve is a searchable file. Maybe the way would be to break the photos up into their component parts or such that is someone did a search for say “original fan blade colour” it may pick up on several areas like “original” or within an “engine” area would hopefully recognise Fan Blade if there is a photo headed such as part of it. The difficulty may be to know how detailed in the breakup of the areas to go.
You could always use the standard Parts Sellers 10+ area descriptors headings. e.g., body, electrical, engine, drive train etc etc etc. If you look at the Tech Manual you will see lots of areas where there are headings only. There are there in the hope that someone will add items as they are done. When making your pages up, you probably should put as many headings as possible in the hope that people would populate it over time as photos come to light.
Garry
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There were several people who said that they had collected lists of parts on spreadsheets as well as on photographing them on large pieces of paper with the part name/location and a number related to the spreadsheet.
Perhaps one of these systems would be a useful addition too, if one of the members was willing to share it.
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I don't mind sharing mine if it will help.
I have deleted all pages of my Parts to Cadmium Plate spreadsheet except for the first page. The format is (xls). The parts listed and described on the spreadsheet correspond with the Batch 1 photo, also attached. On the photo, P1LXX corresponds to the parts on spreadsheet Page 1, Line XX.
Unfortunately the Pagoda site does not accept Excel Spreadsheets. If you can give me an email address to send it to, I will be happy to send the Excel sample spreadsheet. It's only about 70 kilobytes. As a reminder, I've attached the screen dump of the spreadsheet page 1.
For about 1600 individual parts, I ended up with 14 batches (14 photos) of parts that filled 15 spreadsheet pages.
To satisfy anyone's curiosity, it all weighed 60 pounds and cost $120 U.S. to ship them to DeTray Plating, $ 475 U.S. for CAD plating, and $260 U.S. for DeTray to ship it all back to me here in Quebec, Canada in the summer of 2013.
I hope this will help to start the process.
Tom Kizer
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Tom,
Yes, this will help. I will start a new thread shortly. Meanwhile my e-mail is dirkbalter@hotmail.com.
Thanks
Dirk
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I don't mind sharing mine if it will help.
I have deleted all pages of my Parts to Cadmium Plate spreadsheet except for the first page. The format is (xls). The parts listed and described on the spreadsheet correspond with the Batch 1 photo, also attached. On the photo, P1LXX corresponds to the parts on spreadsheet Page 1, Line XX.
Unfortunately the Pagoda site does not accept Excel Spreadsheets. If you can give me an email address to send it to, I will be happy to send the Excel sample spreadsheet. It's only about 70 kilobytes. As a reminder, I've attached the screen dump of the spreadsheet page 1.
For about 1600 individual parts, I ended up with 14 batches (14 photos) of parts that filled 15 spreadsheet pages.
To satisfy anyone's curiosity, it all weighed 60 pounds and cost $120 U.S. to ship them to DeTray Plating, $ 475 U.S. for CAD plating, and $260 U.S. for DeTray to ship it all back to me here in Quebec, Canada in the summer of 2013.
I hope this will help to start the process.
Tom Kizer
Yes, tom it will be of help to me as well. My e-mail is: rbouch8828@aol.com
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Tom,
I'm curious as to why you had the hood catch on the paper with your parts? Does that get cadmium treatment? Also, what is the meaning of the "X"s?
Best,
Roland