Pagoda SL Group
Off Topic => Way Off Topic => Topic started by: Chad on August 30, 2005, 21:52:27
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Not about w113, however, we do get 16-19 mpg...
A silly question to ask, perhaps, but how about those gas prices.
Has anyone seen? www.drydipstick.com/#intro
I might be buying one of these or try investing there:
www.wicycle.com/wierd%20stream.wmv
Good riddens to the SUV and the "I've got mine attitude."
What are your thoughts?
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1967 230SL, 113.042 10
1983 300TDT, 123.193
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Hey Chad
I think the reality of the situation is only just starting to sink in for the person on the street, as it were...too bad the automakers and the government have been hiding their heads in the sand and selling North Americans a lot of overpowered guzzlers, while the supplies have dwindled....used SUV's anyone.....on the other hand, we read that gas prices as a percentage of income are no higher than in the 60's, so why would people think about conservation....that will change now...so maybe we should start a new thread about converting 113's to electrics.....
Richard
'67 250SL
'83 300TDT
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we are about to go through $1.80 a litre (3.8 of them to a US Gallon, I believe)
Quit moaning!
But yes, really glad I didn't buy that big 4.8litre range rover...
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For some odd reason I am always compelled to defend SUVs (maybe because we have two?)...
Anyway, its my opinion that these behemoths do serve a purpose, at least in my neck of the woods (hint). While the mileage is not fabulous, they are sturdy and reliable in inclement weather, large enough to haul my family of five safely, and powerful enough to pull the boat or a trailer full of trimmings from my trees... None of these is much fun in an economy car.
Now I will concede that the 65 bucks to fill my truck up yesterday made me wince a little -- but then again so did that 2.00 cup of coffee!
James
63 230SL
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This week I filled my main driver, a 4x4 truck. cost $64.00
Filled the E320 with premium. cost $58.00
The boat with a 140 gal tank and 2 big block chevy's is going to sit for awhile. :(
Mike Halleck
Chesterfield Mi
71 280SL
68 250SL (parts car)
94 E320 Coupe
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Yesterday 8/30 on the way to my car wash, gas was $2.79. On the way home an hour later, it had jumped to $2.99. One large station, a Meijer's Super Store, had kept it to $2.89, but blocked off one entrance to keep some order, shades of the old gas crisis lines. This afternoon, prices were $3.09, on the way home again an hour later, they had jumped to $3.19 and $3.29. One station was at $3.39. In Michigan at least, the prices are being changed hourly.
In case you didn't know there was a cement shortage this year. Steel prices have doubled in the past year--this is all pre-Katrina. Based upon historical perspective with Hurricane Andrew of a few years ago, my suspicion is that the reconstruction of the gulf coast devastation will suck every bit of building material this country can muster--as well as the contractors who use them--for several years. Expect horrific price increases in these materials, and in the labor to use them. If you have any plans on the drawing board, I'd suggest a trip to Home Depot or Lowes this week.
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
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This afternoon the price for premium at the local Chevron was $2.97 per gallon. With the recent rise in crude coupled with the Katrina devistation we'll be seeing much higher prices.
1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.
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A little "gasoline hysteria" broke out in Atlanta just after lunchtime today as prices jumped and rumors of short supply began circulating. Traffic on my drive home from work was noticably affected by the lines of cars witing to pull into gas stations.
I fear the wrath of Katrina is upon us all so its probably time to take a deep breath and accept the fact that this is simply the way things are going to be for a while.
Ed Cave
Atlanta, GA
1971 280SL
1973 911S
2004 A4 3.0
2006 GS430
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$3.19 a gallon today, filled the truck again 24 gallons - $75.00 and I need gas for the mower and weed wacker - (2) 5 gallon cans - $32.00
Over a $100 dollars for gas and I'm not even going anywhere this weekend. :evil:
Mike Halleck
Chesterfield Mi
71 280SL
68 250SL (parts car)
94 E320 Coupe
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I live in Los Angeles and have watched the price of premium gas jump from $2.99 to $3.50 for super. Nothing we can do but we might want to consider buying our gas from companies who do not import foreign oil. Lastly I do not depend on my SL as a daily driver and I do live close to work .
I consider my self lucky and I would rather put $100.00 to the blue cross for the people who losted everything on the golf cost then put it in my SL for fuel. Think about that before you complain about the price of gas or eat your next meal.
Bob Geco
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Guys, it's unfortunately much bigger than gas prices. Building materials will go through the roof, transportation costs since this is a huge shipping center for import/export, service businesses on the gulf coast will disappear because of permanent population shifts.
I have enormous faith in the resilence of the human spirit, but this is both a shock and shift that will affect us for a long time.
Watch out next year for low mileage, late model, used cars in the auto auctions...likely cleaned up and flooded cars from the gulf coast dealers...
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And now, another way of looking at things:
In 1972 when I began farming soya beans were about $6.00 pr bushel. Today, they're still $6.00 per bushel. I could by diesel fuel for .40 a gallon back then - now it's a $1.40 a litre.
1972 in could by a new 60 HP tractor with about 1,500 bushels of beans - today I might buy a new set of tires and rims.
It takes about 10 gallons per hour to run all the machinery during harvest - about 50 to 60 dollars per hour.
A ton of corn is about $80.00 CDN. To transport a ton of garbage from Toronto to Michigan so it can be dumped into a land fill ( about 250 miles away ) costs $85.00 Garbage is more valuable in this country than food.
So, if I don't have too much sympathy for those who fuel boats ( land or otherwise ) you can kind of understand. The average net income for a Canadian farmer last year was a whopping $3,700.00 even though most would gross over $100,000.00
The extravagant and wastefull ways of NA society has been headed for this sort of melt down for a long time. How much would you be willing to pay for food if some sort of natural disaster were to happen next week?
Maybe it's time to put all things into perspective...
Dan Caron's
SL Barn
benzbarn@ebtech.net
slbarn.mbz.org
1 877 661 6061
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Just drove around 3,000 miles the past three weeks, at over $6 a gallon. The Netherlands have the second-highest gas prices in the world and it's been that way for as long as I can remember.
More cars on the roads each year in this, what used to be the most densily populated country in the world. Lots of SUV's the past couple of years, they are becoming more and more popular. Lots and lots of traffic jams on a daily basis for commuters.
So, in short, at twice the gas prices and a fraction of the available space to drive, in a country known for being frugal and 'cheap Dutch', car usage is at an all-time high and climbing.
Cees ("Case") Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
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Cees -- IMO those are insightful, powerful and compelling observations.
Tom in Boise
'71 280SL 4-spd, signal red w/lt. tan interior, restored/enhanced
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Hummmmmm...... well, farmers in Holland make a lot more than ones in Canada. Farmers in the USA also make more than we do, but I wouldn't say they're well off.
Dutch farmers have come here recently to avoid strict enviornmental regs and high land prices. Since much of Holland is at or under sea level, there's a huge problem with ground water pollution from pig manure.
Apparently, none of this maters - only that SUV's will soon be dumped at fire sale prices much like the big boats from the early '70's. Most people around this site can afford higher gas prices. Looking at some of their profiles, this isn't that much of a blue collar crowd.
The really compelling, insightful and powerful observation here is that some people are out of touch with reality.
The day to day struggle of a growing lower class that now have no place to live and no home to go back to, should make the idea of extra costs to drive our toys around seem pretty small by comparision.
Extra fuel costs will mean the end of farming for myself and my family. There just isn't anything left at this point.
Dan Caron's
SL Barn
benzbarn@ebtech.net
slbarn.mbz.org
1 877 661 6061
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Dan,
A little tale I heard in Shanghai recently, from two of my colleagues there, both in their early 30s.
China as you know has a "one child" policy. What is less publicised is that if you are in the countryside, you can have 2 kids. It also has stopped free education above secondary level.
The two Shanghainese were effectively saying...we have an underclass of peasants. If not now, then later. No-one in the countryside can afford to go to university/get an education. So the "average" is being lowered. They'll always be peasants, and the few in the cities will get fed by them. (let's not imagine the long term consequences of that...)
On leaving the office that afternoon, one driver nearly knocked an old dear off her bike, as he swerved to avoid a brand new, custom colour SL55AMG...
As an aside, we're constantly fed the line that "we" want cheap food, and won't pay for quality - at least that's what we're told here as Tesco and Asda/Walmart cut prices once again. OK, I am not necessarily representative, but I'd rather have quality, fresh, sustainable sourced food than "cheap". No-one asked me
And don't get me started on the Fairtrade issue. It's not Fairtrade so in buying it am I saying "it's cheap and I really don't give a flying fig for the poor Guatemalan and his family who slaved away for nowt so i can get banana's two cents a kilo cheaper"? Surely, all of it should be "fair"...
Oh, and huge problems here right now for the retailers:
Unleaded is likely to go above £1 a litre. Most of their signage, and pumps, are only calibrated to 99.99p per litre. Oh, how we laughed!
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quote:
Originally posted by mdsalemi
Yesterday 8/30 on the way to my car wash, gas was $2.79. On the way home an hour later, it had jumped to $2.99. One large station, a Meijer's Super Store, had kept it to $2.89, but blocked off one entrance to keep some order, shades of the old gas crisis lines. This afternoon, prices were $3.09, on the way home again an hour later, they had jumped to $3.19 and $3.29. One station was at $3.39. In Michigan at least, the prices are being changed hourly.
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
Oh how I miss 2.79 per gallon.....
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We really have nothing to complain about. We did it to ourselves. Plus we are still way cheaper than Europe.
The one that gets me that I didn't know was that the auto companies bought all the streetcar companies in the 50's and 60's so they could scrap them, creating more demand for cars.
Its kinda funny in my city (Tacoma) they put in light rail at a great cost over the past 5 years. They laid the rail in the exact same places where they tore out the old streetcar rails in the 70's and 80's.
Big oil is going to use this to push for drilling in eco sensitive areas. Alternatively for the conspiracy theorists.... they created the problem so they could push for drilling in those areas that Congress voted against.
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Diesel is now over £1.20 a litre
Unleaded a shade under
At a shade under $2 a £, that's $8.85 a US Gallon :D
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You guys .... :?
Gas prices are so cheap in the States ... what are you complaining about? We Europeans pay a hell of gas tax and VAT for this $$ 135 per barrel liquid.
Current German prices are Euro 1.50 per litre and more , that' about 6 € per gallon or > $$ 9 per gallon. _That's_ expensive ...! :evil:
JMHO
Achim
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It's interesting that this 3 year old thread is getting some action again. How do I feel about gas prices? Well, with respect to a Pagoda, gas prices are a non-issue since I'm not going to drive it that much and if I can afford the parts and the car, I can afford the gas. For my 6 mile commute to work, I'm driving a Ford Ranger that I dislike, but our livestyles dictate that we need to own a pickup and this one has cost us virtuatlly nothing to own/maintain. For longer drives (going to see Mom 90 miles away, commutes across town, etc) I drive the other car - a Prius. So I have it pretty good when it comes to not being impacted by fuel prices. At the same time, I want to see the little Beverly Hills housewife spend $200 at the gas station to fill up her Suburban. For that kind of foolishness I would be happy to see US gas prices get up to European gas prices. The part of the economy that is really hurt by this is the people who are working for minimum wage and probably can't afford a newer more fuel-effient car. These people are truly being squeezed and I don't like it at all. I would be very much in favor of a MUCH higher "gas guzzler" tax on new vehicle purchases and much higher CAFE standards. I would also be in favor of a minimum wage that was a true living wage, which the current minimum wage is not.
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Personally, I'm sick of $4 a gallon gas, while drinking my $15 a gallon Starbucks. So, I'm drilling a slanted well to Qatar, building a refinery and storage, putting in pumps, etc in my backyard here in NC. Going to Fenway Park and have $30 a gallon bottled water with the action to cool off. Just bought a $30,000 a gallon perfum for my Honey. But, I'm really pissed at Exxon making 30 cents a gallon on a high quality, dependable product. Whoops-- the neighbors complained about my refinery, I struck a dry hole, EPA fined me, I didn't have 3 billion dollars to fund the whole thing. But I love my congress person for stopping Nuclear power, blocking domestic drilling, taking money from the loonies, etc. Think I'll have a foreign owned(soon) Bud at $12 a gallon chill out. But, don't fret- I'm still mad at Shell and Valero for paying billions in taxes to government.
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quote:
Originally posted by glennard
Personally, I'm sick of $4 a gallon gas, while drinking my $15 a gallon Starbucks. So, I'm drilling a slanted well to Qatar, building a refinery and storage, putting in pumps, etc in my backyard here in NC. Going to Fenway Park and have $30 a gallon bottled water with the action to cool off. Just bought a $30,000 a gallon perfum for my Honey. But, I'm really pissed at Exxon making 30 cents a gallon on a high quality, dependable product. Whoops-- the neighbors complained about my refinery, I struck a dry hole, EPA fined me, I didn't have 3 billion dollars to fund the whole thing. But I love my congress person for stopping Nuclear power, blocking domestic drilling, taking money from the loonies, etc. Think I'll have a foreign owned(soon) Bud at $12 a gallon chill out. But, don't fret- I'm still mad at Shell and Valero for paying billions in taxes to government.
Touche - it's simple supply and demand. Demand in Asia is growing faster than we can even fathom and simple economics increases the price. If other nations pay more than us and don't like that, they should review their tax policies, not OPEC. We need more supply and IMHO this is in part the exceedingly high cost of environmentalism.
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quote:
Originally posted by benzportland
Touche - it's simple supply and demand. Demand in Asia is growing faster than we can even fathom and simple economics increases the price. If other nations pay more than us and don't like that, they should review their tax policies, not OPEC. We need more supply and IMHO this is in part the exceedingly high cost of environmentalism.
I'm not sure where this is headed, but I think the problem is that we are not paying the cost of environmmentalism and what we need is to reduce demand rather than increase supply of something that is finite in nature.
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Okay I volunteer you to stop driving. ;)
quote:
Originally posted by scoot
quote:
Originally posted by benzportland
Touche - it's simple supply and demand. Demand in Asia is growing faster than we can even fathom and simple economics increases the price. If other nations pay more than us and don't like that, they should review their tax policies, not OPEC. We need more supply and IMHO this is in part the exceedingly high cost of environmentalism.
I'm not sure where this is headed, but I think the problem is that we are not paying the cost of environmmentalism and what we need is to reduce demand rather than increase supply of something that is finite in nature.
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Just looking back through this thread...
It seems that in % increase terms, the US has seen higher rises than we have
I wonder where Exxon is making it's money?
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quote:
Originally posted by Tosh
I wonder where Exxon is making it's money?
Everywhere!
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quote:
Originally posted by Tosh
I wonder where Exxon is making it's money?
They're trying to maximize profits while their cronies are still running the show... until November that is.
I've been using this opportunity to try and get my car to run as best as possible-- not too rich or lean. Next stop: measure the CO % level and make adjustments. Anyone ever install an O2 sensor? This would obviously only be for monitoring purposes through a voltmeter in the cockpit. I've been contemplating doing it for a while now...
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Glennard...looks like preposterous petrol prices to me.
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"I'm not sure where this is headed, but I think the problem is that we are not paying the cost of environmmentalism and what we need is to reduce demand rather than increase supply of something that is finite in nature."-Scoot
I agree with Scoot.
The problem is that we will never see viable 100% clean energy vehicles until all of the oil is used up. There is no way big oil would let that happen.
Another problem is all of the gas stations. There won't be a replacement for the gas car unless it somehow utilizes all of these stations.
A third obstacle is loss of jobs. Nothing will fly unless it creates as many jobs as it displaced when the refineries close.
Personally I say tax the S**T out of gas up to European standards. Use the money to build better rail and bus systems. Yes there will be people who can't afford to drive. But, there are people all over the world who can't afford to drive that walk, carpool, take the bus etc.
Marketing from the car companies and probably big oil convinced America that we all need cars and/or have the right to drive.
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I was in France five years ago and the price (at over a Euro/$1.60 a litre) then was well over what we are paying in North America now during this latest "crisis"! However everyone went about their daily routines and seemed to go where they wanted when they wanted. Of course, unlike North America they weren't driving some 7.5 litre V10 double axle crew cab pickup! My buddy's Audi diesel went over 1,000 km to an tank and I don't even remember having to fill up!
MPG in North America peaked in the late eighties. Cheap gas soon took the focus off of fuel economy and advances in automotive engineering went into more horsepower instead of economy while the compact truck segment practically disappeared... as mid-sized trucks became full size and full size became 15 mpg behemoths! Retro muscle cars became the obsession with Detroit...offering a token economy model in their lineups vs Toyota's 4-5! Even before the current crunch Toyota quietly became the worlds #1 automaker.
While I like performance cars and trucks (and hope their will always be a place for them) they can't be the focus of efforts as the domestic automakers seem to have been doing.
Now the full burden of the new and pending 35 mpg (US) Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) is forced exclusively on the already hard pressed automakers who have to change direction 180 degrees.
Supply and demand is no doubt part of the issue and the big oil companies love to point to "market forces" as the issue. However it's not as if their costs; wages, rents, infrastructure, etc., go up proportinally through this (as Exxon records a $41 billion profit...up from the previous record $40 B) and each increase does seem to go straight to the corporate bottom line! As domestic refining capacty (hardly added to as of late) limitiations are often cited as a contributing issue regardless of actual foreign (or domestic) oil supplies...one wonders why it's so difficult to re-invest some of the $41 B into refining capacity? It's almost as if they didn't want to for some reason? ;)
Doug
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Using this way of thinking, I wonder what our great grand parents thought when the arrival of the auto doomed the horse. What were they to do with all those outdated hitching posts and livery stables?
One area takes over from another just as one invention makes all that before obsolete.
3,000 years ago the men of that time were instructed to re-dig the wells of their fore fathers. Maybe we should that too.....
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I think the difference is that America was still young and big business didn't have a share of those hitching posts. Nor did the hitching posts generate a lot of profit.
Frankly I'm not feeling the gas prices because I drive a Scion that gets 30+ mpg.
2 things need to happen to fix our traffic and fuel problems and they likely never will because it would be political suicide.
1. Tax gas up to European levels
2. Make 2 or 3 out of 4 highway lanes HOV(allow super fuel efficient cars with one driver)
Once driving alone in a gas guzzler becomes supremely unattractive, our culture will change.
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quote:
Originally posted by paulr
Glennard...looks like preposterous petrol prices to me.
Prime PPP!
Re: Supply and demand. Hope the $upply of Pagoda$ doe$n't ballon, but the demand doe$. i.e. - Auto aficionados acquire good taste. Just the opposite for energy. Hope the supply goes up and the demand goes down.
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quote:
Originally posted by Benz Dr.
And now, another way of looking at things:
In 1972 when I began farming soya beans were about $6.00 pr bushel. Today, they're still $6.00 per bushel. I could by diesel fuel for .40 a gallon back then - now it's a $1.40 a litre.
Dan Caron's
SL Barn
benzbarn@ebtech.net
slbarn.mbz.org
1 877 661 6061
Dan, you must be in the wrong place at the wrong time...July soybean futures hit USD $15.51 a bushel on Friday...if someone's offering you $6 (don't care if its US or C dollars) you are being taken for a ride...they are up over $2 a bushel in the past 4 weeks, so if someone planted them, they are still growing and have taken quite a ride...time to get an armed guard on the fields.
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That's what I like about this site - being quoted out of contex. In this case that post is over a year old or more. I'm aware of the price of beans and I wish I had some to sell.
They really were about 6.50 per bushel just a short time ago. Most of the price increase is due to a srike by farmers in Argentina and Brazil. I guess they don't pay taxes there but the government takes 25% of their crop at point of sale. I was told they wanted to increase this to 40% and every port, highway and elevator has been blocked. Now we have a weather market with a lot of the mid west under water from heavy rains. I'm just about right here with almost perfect growing conditions so far.
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quote:
Originally posted by Benz Dr.
That's what I like about this site - being quoted out of contex. In this case that post is over a year old or more.
Actually, that quote is almost 3 years old!
Jerry, you're from Seattle, right?
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quote:
Originally posted by Benz Dr.
I'm just about right here with almost perfect growing conditions so far.
...too bad you have no beans to sell! They seem to be appreciating in value about as fast as they are growing! ;)
Darn near everything that grows--wheat, corn, beans--is up in value!
...and when that quote was originally made, 2005, oil was about $52 a barrel, not $120 as it is today...
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Gas prices?... interesting that it's finally getting into the region it probably should have already been in US... i.e. I really don't care. Lemmee see... my wife drives an '02 SL500, I have my W113, and a '67 C20 Pick-up with a 327, Holly 4BBL, etc, high ratio rear-end that get's 10 mpg at best I think, and my old commuter ('91 Accord Coupe EX) with 268k miles on it and it still get's 21-22 mpg around town/short hops, and 27-32 mpg on any extended driving depending on how heavy my foot is.
Drive slower, keep tires properly inflated, and stay off the high accelerations if gas prices are too high for your comfort level.
I've always been interested in why Europe and the rest of the world's gas prices are 2x-4x higher than ours while we import most of the same oil they import... and besides which our own oil (non-imported) is still owned by the oil company's who sell on the world market anyway. What's price of gas in Alaska, btw? A lot cheaper than in the contiguous states? Cheaper than in SF? Not likely... same average price in Alaska as in SF ($4.60/G).. a lot cheaper in New Orleans and Houston though.... so maybe another way to save on Gas is to move to Houston or New Orleans.
http://www.alaskagasprices.com/retail_price_chart.aspx
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The answer is:taxes,taxes and taxes.... :(
quote:
Originally posted by Longtooth
Gas prices?... interesting that it's finally getting into the region it probably should have already been in US... i.e. I really don't care. Lemmee see... my wife drives an '02 SL500, I have my W113, and a '67 C20 Pick-up with a 327, Holly 4BBL, etc, high ratio rear-end that get's 10 mpg at best I think, and my old commuter ('91 Accord Coupe EX) with 268k miles on it and it still get's 21-22 mpg around town/short hops, and 27-32 mpg on any extended driving depending on how heavy my foot is.
Drive slower, keep tires properly inflated, and stay off the high accelerations if gas prices are too high for your comfort level.
I've always been interested in why Europe and the rest of the world's gas prices are 2x-4x higher than ours while we import most of the same oil they import... and besides which our own oil (non-imported) is still owned by the oil company's who sell on the world market anyway. What's price of gas in Alaska, btw? A lot cheaper than in the contiguous states? Cheaper than in SF? Not likely... same average price in Alaska as in SF ($4.60/G).. a lot cheaper in New Orleans and Houston though.... so maybe another way to save on Gas is to move to Houston or New Orleans.
http://www.alaskagasprices.com/retail_price_chart.aspx
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All good comments. But, a gallon of gas or a bushel of grain or a Pagoda is still what it is. What has happened is the value, purchasing power, worth, of the Yankee dollar(paper, not gold) has fallen off the table. Keep the printing press full of ink-------- Soon it will take a Pagoda trunk full of paper dollars to fill a Pagoda tank. Historically an ounce of gold has been around 10 barrels of oil (plus or minus)?
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4$ a gallon gas sounds like a great deal to me. 8) At the moment the price in Holland is $9,45 per gallon :x
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DRILL HERE - DRILL NOW - PAY LESS!
Go to Hannity.com and and sign up! or Americansoulations.org
Do your part to start drilling NOW. We have the oil, lets use
our own. Not middle east.
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quote:
Originally posted by RBurg
DRILL HERE - DRILL NOW - PAY LESS!
Go to Hannity.com and and sign up! or Americansoulations.org
Do your part to start drilling NOW. We have the oil, lets use
our own. Not middle east.
Couldn't agree more. This is what I mean by the high cost of environmentalism. I live in Oregon, which draws environmentalists like magnets. I'm a native of this state and although we have always been "green" lately it has become fashionable for environmentalists to flock here and tell others what to do. We have virtually no industry left in this state as a result. I have some extra property along one of our rivers and I would like to drill. I know I won't be able too most likely, as here even if there is no law currently prohibiting it, they will make one and apply it retroactively. But, the process of trying would be highly interesting. I read about one guy in Indiana who successfully did it in his backyard, so who knows....
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Judge -- Your comments renews my faith in Oregonians. I too grew up in Oregon, and it was wonderful. Ever see the old movie, “Stand by Me”? I knew the kids in that flim, because I was one of them (the good one, naturally).
I was raised about 20 miles from Roseburg, among a closely clustered group of small towns in SW Oregon, all of which were based on natural resource industries. Those little towns, at that time, formed a reasonably prosperous community where mill workers had real family wage jobs that allowed them to send their kids to the state’s universities. Those jobs are gone now. Americans still need & use the products that came from that area; now we just get most of them from our very good neighbor & friends to the north.
The small and then-healthy community where I grew up in SW Oregon now makes Appalachia look good in terms of economic opportunity for the young people who remain. And for those who do stay their primary career choice is indeed sad (not to mention illegal). I find the current situation in much of rural Oregon to be a very gloomy state of affairs. As you say, the cost of environmentalism can be high; very high I think.
But on the bright side, some spots in the state are now prettier than ever. So my wife and I may now enjoy the somewhat improved scenery if & when are we are able to mindlessly breeze past those once prosperous, but now suffering, little towns. Also Portland still has some of the finest restaurants to be found everywhere; and we continue to enjoy the Portland Symphony immensely!
Couldn't agree more. This is what I mean by the high cost of environmentalism. I live in Oregon, which draws environmentalists like magnets. I'm a native of this state and although we have always been "green" lately it has become fashionable for environmentalists to flock here and tell others what to do. We have virtually no industry left in this state as a result. I have some extra property along one of our rivers and I would like to drill. I know I won't be able too most likely, as here even if there is no law currently prohibiting it, they will make one and apply it retroactively. But, the process of trying would be highly interesting. I read about one guy in Indiana who successfully did it in his backyard, so who knows....
[/quote]
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Agreed. It's about time we face the music. Gas in europe has been around $4 per gallon for nearly 15 years. They dealt with it, why shouldn't we. We are not special.
quote:
Originally posted by Longtooth
Gas prices?... interesting that it's finally getting into the region it probably should have already been in US... i.e. I really don't care. Lemmee see... my wife drives an '02 SL500, I have my W113, and a '67 C20 Pick-up with a 327, Holly 4BBL, etc, high ratio rear-end that get's 10 mpg at best I think, and my old commuter ('91 Accord Coupe EX) with 268k miles on it and it still get's 21-22 mpg around town/short hops, and 27-32 mpg on any extended driving depending on how heavy my foot is.
Drive slower, keep tires properly inflated, and stay off the high accelerations if gas prices are too high for your comfort level.
I've always been interested in why Europe and the rest of the world's gas prices are 2x-4x higher than ours while we import most of the same oil they import... and besides which our own oil (non-imported) is still owned by the oil company's who sell on the world market anyway. What's price of gas in Alaska, btw? A lot cheaper than in the contiguous states? Cheaper than in SF? Not likely... same average price in Alaska as in SF ($4.60/G).. a lot cheaper in New Orleans and Houston though.... so maybe another way to save on Gas is to move to Houston or New Orleans.
http://www.alaskagasprices.com/retail_price_chart.aspx
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quote:
Originally posted by TR
Judge -- Your comments renews my faith in Oregonians. I too grew up in Oregon, and it was wonderful. Ever see the old movie, “Stand by Me”? I knew the kids in that flim, because I was one of them (the good one, naturally).
I was raised about 20 miles from Roseburg, among a closely clustered group of small towns in SW Oregon, all of which were based on natural resource industries. Those little towns, at that time, formed a reasonably prosperous community where mill workers had real family wage jobs that allowed them to send their kids to the state’s universities. Those jobs are gone now. Americans still need & use the products that came from that area; now we just get most of them from our very good neighbor & friends to the north.
The small and then-healthy community where I grew up in SW Oregon now makes Appalachia look good in terms of economic opportunity for the young people who remain. And for those who do stay their primary career choice is indeed sad (not to mention illegal). I find the current situation in much of rural Oregon to be a very gloomy state of affairs. As you say, the cost of environmentalism can be high; very high I think.
But on the bright side, some spots in the state are now prettier than ever. So my wife and I may now enjoy the somewhat improved scenery if & when are we are able to mindlessly breeze past those once prosperous, but now suffering, little towns. Also Portland still has some of the finest restaurants to be found everywhere; and we continue to enjoy the Portland Symphony immensely!
Yep I am familiar with that area and it is suffering greatly now, and has been since the early 80's. I am thinking of Winston and Myrtle Creek, where the median income is 30k per year per household and 14 percent are below poverty and living in LBJ's "great society." That shows crystal clear how much "blue states" care about their local communities. In the meantime, Portland is run by children who want to ban motor vehicles completely so "their" city (cuz it ain't ours anymore) seems cool and hip, and in their minds progressive :?:
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quote:
Originally posted by dseretakis
Agreed. It's about time we face the music. Gas in europe has been around $4 per gallon for nearly 15 years. They dealt with it, why shouldn't we. We are not special.
Everyone pays the same for crude. Some pay more because they choose to tax it higher. USA special? Yes, looking at our history I think so....
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You nailed it, in both responses. First, the exact area in SW Oregon. And second, that people "elect" (my interpretation) what they pay for fuel and many other things. Much of it, IMO, has to do with the government, and accompanying tax structures, people decide to live within and to accept. It's all about collective choice. Although I'd be happy to be proven wrong about that...
quote:
Originally posted by benzportland
quote:
Originally posted by TR
Judge -- Your comments renews my faith in Oregonians. I too grew up in Oregon, and it was wonderful. Ever see the old movie, “Stand by Me”? I knew the kids in that flim, because I was one of them (the good one, naturally).
I was raised about 20 miles from Roseburg, among a closely clustered group of small towns in SW Oregon, all of which were based on natural resource industries. Those little towns, at that time, formed a reasonably prosperous community where mill workers had real family wage jobs that allowed them to send their kids to the state’s universities. Those jobs are gone now. Americans still need & use the products that came from that area; now we just get most of them from our very good neighbor & friends to the north.
The small and then-healthy community where I grew up in SW Oregon now makes Appalachia look good in terms of economic opportunity for the young people who remain. And for those who do stay their primary career choice is indeed sad (not to mention illegal). I find the current situation in much of rural Oregon to be a very gloomy state of affairs. As you say, the cost of environmentalism can be high; very high I think.
But on the bright side, some spots in the state are now prettier than ever. So my wife and I may now enjoy the somewhat improved scenery if & when are we are able to mindlessly breeze past those once prosperous, but now suffering, little towns. Also Portland still has some of the finest restaurants to be found everywhere; and we continue to enjoy the Portland Symphony immensely!
quote:
Yep I am familiar with that area and it is suffering greatly now, and has been since the early 80's. I am thinking of Winston and Myrtle Creek, where the median income is 30k per year per household and 14 percent are below poverty and living in LBJ's "great society." That shows crystal clear how much "blue states" care about their local communities. In the meantime, Portland is run by children who want to ban motor vehicles completely so "their" city (cuz it ain't ours anymore) seems cool and hip, and in their minds progressive :?:
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Glennard's 'First step' to the oil crisis. Immediately build enough nuclear plants to replace all power plants burning oil. Refining crude into power plant fuel is idiotic. We are better served by refining crude into value added products and transportation fuels. Backing out the millions of gallons/day of fuel oil being burned in central stations would drop oil back well below $100/barrel.
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Remeber the days of Carter when you were told to turn down the heat. Gas lines. [***]
The other night one of the people that stated Green Peace was on a conserative talk radio (Jason Lewis)and he has done a 180 stating in his new book that we need nucular power - drill for oil and use the trees for the good of the people.
Don't put mother earth in front of the people on this earth, use the earth for the good of the people. We are here for a short time - the earth has been here for millions of year.
Lets dive our our Pagodas and enjoy the better part of the mechinical age.
[***]
[Edited by Moderator to remove political and environmental issues not appropriate for this automobile forum.]
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Gas prices indeed are on the rise. I think we should be more concerned with the much too fast increase of the price of crude oil. This increase will have a much greater impact on the world's economy then just the increase in gasoline prices.
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One of the things I have always enjoyed about the SL113 organization is how most of us carefully avoid politics and religion. I am saddened to see Mr. RBurg trample on that and see some others pipe in with approval.
We all have opinions about gas prices, taxes, and governments. Most of those expressed are simply because the spokesperson's particular ox is being gored.
That our beloved cars are useless without oil is a fact. That this forum is not the place to instigate political demegoguery should be a fact as well.
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I guess "general discussion" needs to be further defined then as "general discussion about pagodas"?
Personally I enjoy the variety of view points. If you only hang out with fellow Sierra Club or Young Republican members you will eventually suffer from a lack of perspective.
Drilling U.S. oil is literally the last thing we should do in my opinion. It is short sited. Let the rest of the world use up their reserves. $5.00 a gallon now is nothing compared to the prices when the supply really starts to run out.
We don't need more supply...just less demand.
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Yes, TheLews I live in the Seattle area, Tacoma now actually.
As I was commutting home Friday I was thinking how ridiculous gas engines are for the Seattle area commute. 2 hours to go 30 miles.
Seriously, the equivalent of an electric trolling motor would work better.
I also think about my work trucks that get 10 to 15 mpg. They drive 20 minutes and then sit in one location all day. That would be ideal for an electric setup.
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While sipping my $32 a gallon coffee latte, I figured oil and Pagodas are both commodities - each have alternatives and obey the law of supply and demand. Took a Pagoda trip to the local $30,000 a gallon Perfumery for my Honey's birthday. After the ride in the 113 burning fossil fuel I capped it off with a $15 a gallon German beverage. Probably have a $35 a gallon 'designer water' at Fenway Park tomorrow,-- but that doesn't mean I'm NOT mad as hell about Exxon making 30 cents($0.30) a gallon on gas.------
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$5 gas should be for pagodas and other special occasion type cars. Suburbans, H2s, Expeditions -- _occasionally_ I see them actually towing something but usually it's the mom at the grocery store. I say raise the gas tax, get it up to $10 per gallon, and we may actually start thinking about what it costs and reduce consumption. Exception: the group of people who are really hurting from this are the minimum wage earners just trying to get by who can't afford a new economy car. Perhaps a change to the "gas guzzler" tax on new cars, by a factor of 10? 100? Taxing used car sales that are gas guzzlers? Fuel tax credit for low-income households? For the first time in my life I'm actually seeing a shift in tide from tolerance of SUV drivers to contempt. I'm in the minority here, but I'm actually glad to see the $5 / gallon prices that are now appearing in my area. (sorry for the soapbox - my stats: I drive 5 miles to work in a Ford Ranger 3.0 L that gets 20 mpg, my partner's car is a Prius that either of us drive whenever we are going further than my job, then there is the Pagoda which hardly gets driven at all, and a 67 Alfa Duetto that hardly gets driven at all)
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Over here, the "Chelsea Tractor" as it's known is widely derided by all except those that drive them. And while our gas prices are higher for all, they are already being taxed more for their emissions, and more in areas (like London) where we have congestion charging which is scaled on emissions.
However, where they are really being taxed is in depreciation. A friend has a B*W X5 that he bought for £36,000 just over 2 years ago. He's being moved to Florida and has to sell it. He's had it on the market for a couple of months, and started advertising it at £18k. No callers. He's finding that as each week goes by, another £500 is coming OFF the asking price for similar cars. He reckons he'll struggle to give it away. Odd thing is, it's a diesel and it gets over 30mpg - he reckons the "sticker shock" of well over £100 for a tank is not helping
Which really bodes well for GM, Ford and others whose US sales strategy is propped up by selling V8 trucks and SUVs[:0]
And scoot is right on the fixed/low income families. However, the big shock for us all will come when paying the winter fuel bills.
As an aside, BBCs Top Gear started a new series last week and amidst much doom and gloom on fuel prices, decided to have a race. 5 supercars around their track. The winner was the Audi R8, the last placed was some big Ferrari. It managed 1.7miles on the gallon of fuel it (and each of the cars) was allocated for the race (the Audi managed 5, just ahead of the SLR). They then discussed the Prius and it's "green-ness" looking at manufacture of nickel batteries etc, and then decided to put it through it's paces around the same track. It got something like 18mpg.
The B*W M3 that followed it got.... over 19mpg
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quote:
Originally posted by Tosh
However, where they are really being taxed is in depreciation. A friend has a B*W X5 that he bought for £36,000 just over 2 years ago. He's being moved to Florida and has to sell it. He's had it on the market for a couple of months, and started advertising it at £18k.
Given the depreciation, why doesn't he bring the X5 here? There are exemptions for foreign nationals who want to bring non-USA spec cars into the country....
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quote:
Originally posted by scoot
quote:
Originally posted by Tosh
However, where they are really being taxed is in depreciation. A friend has a B*W X5 that he bought for £36,000 just over 2 years ago. He's being moved to Florida and has to sell it. He's had it on the market for a couple of months, and started advertising it at £18k.
Given the depreciation, why doesn't he bring the X5 here? There are exemptions for foreign nationals who want to bring non-USA spec cars into the country....
Those exemptions are for only 1 year, and they are not allowed to sell it locally. After the 1 year is up, they either need to send it back or have it modified to pass DOT standards. A friend had to go through that circus....
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quote:
Originally posted by scoot
$5 gas should be for pagodas and other special occasion type cars. Suburbans, H2s, Expeditions -- _occasionally_ I see them actually towing something but usually it's the mom at the grocery store. I say raise the gas tax, get it up to $10 per gallon, and we may actually start thinking about what it costs and reduce consumption. Exception: the group of people who are really hurting from this are the minimum wage earners just trying to get by who can't afford a new economy car. Perhaps a change to the "gas guzzler" tax on new cars, by a factor of 10? 100? Taxing used car sales that are gas guzzlers? Fuel tax credit for low-income households? For the first time in my life I'm actually seeing a shift in tide from tolerance of SUV drivers to contempt. I'm in the minority here, but I'm actually glad to see the $5 / gallon prices that are now appearing in my area. (sorry for the soapbox - my stats: I drive 5 miles to work in a Ford Ranger 3.0 L that gets 20 mpg, my partner's car is a Prius that either of us drive whenever we are going further than my job, then there is the Pagoda which hardly gets driven at all, and a 67 Alfa Duetto that hardly gets driven at all)
My commute is about 6 miles, and yet I am deeply concerned about the prices because we all pay for it one way or another. Assuming we added a $5 gallon tax today, the cost of fuel would be irrelevant because there would be few places to drive - most businesses would fail ( and lots already are). I am not sure this will help minimum wage earners.
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My former comments (see my former post on this thread) reflected my thoughts about increased gas prices. I see in the meantime many comments have been made that may or may not be interpreted as "political" depending on one's particular point of view or "opinion" on the higher gas prices.
It occurred to me (for reasons stated below) that you cannot separate some things from politics ---- national energy policies (or lack of them), global warming (or lack of it), alcohol fuel, etc being just some of those.
I've been interested in future energy sources issues for several years, and have done some research on the topic over tiime, so the oil prices increases and consequent gas price rises in US (and elsewhere) do not come as a surprise considering that the 5 largest proven reserves are in countries of Middle East, and exports from these countries are also.... and they're OPEC members. World consumption projections have been known for several years... yet OPEC exports began to be curtailed (reduced) ... OPEC decision... not due to problems in production. As the demand continued to grow at predicted rates, the marginal difference between supply and demand began to be reduced. This put crude oil production rates marginally much tighter relative to consumption rates. Whenever marginal supply exist the price always rises due to uncertainties of production meeting demand.... and the tighter the margins the greater the price, even if production meets demand.
Given known predicted increases in demand (which aren't out of range of the projections at the time, by the way), there were steps taken by Saudi's to increase supply... but not necessarily with sufficient lead-times to insure they could keep up with demand increases in time... and why shouldn't they? The tighter the margin of supply to demand the greater the price premium due to uncertainties... and this isn't due to "speculation", but simple risk premiums.
For some facts.... the US's proven oil reserves amount to 2.9 years worth of total US oil consumption at current rate of consumption... so even if all the offshore and wild-lands in Alaska and elsewhere were immediately pumping it all out, it amounts to a pitance in world consumption... and a pitance in US consumption since US has by far and wide several times over the largest per-capita consumption --- that's why we have such a high relative standard of living.... more lighting, more single family dwellings built further and further from places of business and employment (since we have lots of undeveloped but habital environment land ... a geographic uniqueness of US, plenty of readily available supply of water (though draughts can bring some areas to their knees so to speak), greater use of air conditioning, etc. Consumer's don't use the bulk of oil energy supplies by the way... commerce does, so transportation (trucking, rail-roads, airborn), and mfg'ing and businesses use the most by far. Oil consumption by consumers is greatest for home heating, less so for personal transportation.
Fact is that only 3% of oil consumption is used for electrical production, so switching to electrical cars won't reduce oil consumption. Almost 50% of electrical energy in this country is supplied by coal burning plants... nuclear and natural gas make up mearly all the rest... the remaining electrical energy is supplied by hydro-electric with tiny, tiny amount supplied by wind, solar, and geothermal sources.
Point is only that politics on what we do to utilize resources without also impacting the environment (at least not making it worse than it already is... not to mention improving it any), while also obtaining and attracting the financing to build the infrastructure to deal with switching to electrical energy sources for consumer transportation is a political issue. If we switch to major electrical transportation forms for consumer transportation it will reduce reduce oil consumption somewhat for consumer tranportation (personal transportation---- car's, pick-ups, SUV's, etc) but only to the level that electrical energy is used in place of the gasoline engine, but it will certainly require major investments in more coal fired (but that means either more dirty coal burning plants or clean coal plants ... which is more expensive (per kWhr) than the dirty coal plants..., nuclear (but that brings up major environmental issues), and/or natural gas consumption... which will increase overall demand for natural gas and hence price thereof.
Switching to ethanol using corn is a fiasco (imo, politically geographically beneficial, rather then energy motivated) as it uses nearly as much energy to produce the ethanol from corn as it provides so net delta in energy consumption is marginal at best, and given limits to arible (sp?) land and corn belt not using irrigation systems it makes corn more expensive for food-stuffs and other corn based products... means meat prices, milk prices, etc must go up. Brazil's use of ethanol from cane is far more efficient energy wise... about 4-5 times more energy supplied from cane than it uses to produce it... and cane isn't used for human and meat products (animal) consumption other than for sugar content.... so Brazil's energy independance using their combination of cane for ethanol and their oil production (which isn't a minor part of their total energy consumption, btw) is not applicable to the US as a model.
One thing we can count on absolutely... energy costs, regardless of the raw sources, will continue to increase in relative cost terms, OPEC will continue to insure a marginal delta between world demand and world supply to their own economic benefit, and switching to alternative energy sources in US will not be without it's costs... major ones... and the question is only who's going to pay the bill for it.
There's no such thing as a free lunch.
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Geothermal seems promising except for the part that we would be putting all our power plants in National Parks. We didn't need Yellowstone anyway.
I think a variable gas tax would be interesting... based on income, MPG, or the whim of a madman.
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Certainly not if you drive to the restaurant...
quote:
There's no such thing as a free lunch.
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There are very big and important difference in "the price of gas" when the price is caused by taxation (and it's inherent social benefit as Europe and Canada provide) and when it is a supply problem (as in the fabricated crises of 1973 and 1979) and the current emerging economy issues of today combined with speculation on the commodities markets.
Nobody can go back in time and put back in place public transit like trains that we once had here, or streetcars, or what have you. We can't undo the suburban growth.
The price of oil has caused our entire economy to teeter on the brink of depression; (we're past a recession)and has affected almost every part of most people's lives here. We're past inflation now, and the current interest rates have no affect on these things.
Anyone with bright ideas, apply for a job with the new president in November...
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How sick I am of seeing graduated taxing schemes as the stop-gap/cure-all unimaginative solution to community and social ills. Hasn't the welfare state mentality crept into the american dream and stifled our economy enough? The solution to a problem is never going to be to discourage the efforts and employment/free market of those who may in fact be talented enough to find a better solution to it.
quote:
Originally posted by seattle_Jerry
I think a variable gas tax would be interesting... based on income, MPG, or the whim of a madman.
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quote:
Originally posted by Chad
The solution to a problem is never going to be to discourage the efforts and employment/free market of those who may in fact be talented enough to find a better solution to it.
...which works fine for those talented enough to find a solution. Too bad that the world is made up of those with more talent and those with less talent... Shall we just say F-it to the people with less talent but who still try? I don't think that's what our country is about.
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The market "speculation" on oil futures as a "reason" for the cost of gas is not something that is anything more than it has been since oil futures began trading on the markets.
As in any supply/demand commodity, the risks in estimating the supply vs it's demand at any given point in time in the future ... speculation on whether supply at that given point in time will exceed demand and by how much or the inverse is inherent in every stock market trade... in equities as well as commodity futures.
Whenever estimated future supply exceeds demand by a small amount the risks of error in the estimate is inherently greater than when the future supply estimates exceed demand estimates by larger amounts, hence the risk premium in the futures trade will increase. There are and have been significant risks in supply vs demand since Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, with consequent futures markets having inherently greater risk that the supply could be reduced with dramatic reductions in marginal supply over demand ... followed by issues in other OPEC and oil producing regions... Venezuala's saber rattling with Columbia and nationalization of the oil co's operating there, US invasion of Iraq and impact on Iraq's oil supply capability, Nigerian rebel insurrection impacts on the oil pumping and distribution systems, and the list goes on and on, now to also include major perceived risks related to Iran's impacts on supply routes (including their own supply... and they have the 2nd largest proven reserves behind Saudi Arabia. Parenthetically, Iraq's projected 2008 production is now on par with their pre-war production (before 1st Gulf war).
Basic problem is simply that 1) tapping new reserves costs more than it did to tap the old reserve fields... not due to inflation, but because the known proven reserves are more difficult to get out (deeper, thru more rock, mixed with more water, etc), 2) OPEC controls most of the worlds known proven reserves by far... hence they control supply... hence margins between supply & demand. In other words, oil supply / demand and prices aren't operating in a free market classical supply / demand economic model. .. and haven't been for a long long time (nothing has changed in this regard, btw).
Simply stated, the worlds (and our) economies are dependant on oil... period ... for the forseeable future. Any strangle hold on free supply / demand economics will always hike prices... and since entire economy's are dependant on having sufficient oil to meet energy needs of commerce and consumers, the impact of not having sufficient supply has huge negative economic impacts... in other words if you were trading in oil futures you'ed be a fool to not price your buy's without regard to the risks that supply may not meet demand by even a small amount since even small deficiencies will force prices to sky... everybody's going to bid a higher and higher price to get what they need rather than let the entire economy collapse. No brainer.
There's no near-term fixes... no political fixes... no near term knobs to turn and as long as the OPEC cartel can continue to operate unimpeded then supply will remain constrained. People like to "blame" the problem of escalating oil prices on emerging nations ---- China, India, others, when in fact their per-capita demand is a tiny fraction of US per-capita demand... so as they demand more oil to improve their own economic status and standards of living, it puts increasing pressure on the marginal ability to meet demand. It's a fact that the next 5 largest consumers of oil have total demand which barely equals the US's demand alone on a per-capita basis.
The political issue emerges since the higher US gas prices that result have the greatest relative economic impact on the lowest income segment of the population... and no relative economic impact what-so-ever on the highest income segment of the population. The more the income the less the relative economic impact... so of course this is going to get congress's and politician's attention since their constituancies that will vote for their retention or elect their opponent have by far more votes in folks with relative economic impact to their lives than those that don't.
In a political environment and from a very large overview perspective, the only means gov't has to deal with the large voter and economic impacts for high gas and oil prices is to tax the richest segment of society more to help the broader segment of economic consumption and jobs so I predict we'll see congressional action along these lines before the end of 2009.
Neither of the presidential candidates have any current rhetoric (as of tonight's news broadcasts) that relates to anything in the near term.. i.e. less than 10-15 years out.
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quote:
Originally posted by mdsalemi
The price of oil has caused our entire economy to teeter on the brink of depression; (we're past a recession)
Any published statistics to support this statement?
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quote:
Originally posted by thelews
quote:
Originally posted by mdsalemi
The price of oil has caused our entire economy to teeter on the brink of depression; (we're past a recession)
Any published statistics to support this statement?
What statistics would you believe? 17,000 GM workers had their last day of work on Friday.
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080619/AUTO01/806190467/1148/rss25
Consumer confidence is at its worst in years.
http://www.conference-board.org/economics/ConsumerConfidence.cfm
There is a mortgage and lending crisis heretofore unseen. http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-03-11-foreclosures_N.htm http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/mar/18/creditcrunch.marketturmoil1
Oil prices, and I don't mean just gasoline, have caused Dow Chemical to raise prices across the board 20% a few months ago, and another 25% a few weeks ago.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91841241
All the auto manufacturers--(all but Honda) posted record sales drops in June. http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gsz39lpYrNG7OiKs3FJt6jhV6NEwD91LFVLO0
Unemployment is bad and getting worse--moreover, even many experts (here in Michigan at least) believe the numbers to be skewed because many have just given up looking for work that does not exist. http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/04/q-a-time-to-panic-about-unemployment/
Even heretofore "recession proof" sectors are having trouble. http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB121487405694118001.html
Once respected firms in financial sectors are having their principals sent to jail. http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/19/former-bear-stearns-fund-managers-are-arrested/
There's a tremendous ripple effect with many of these things all tied together. My local bank, reviewing small business credit lending, only approved $1M in lending vs. $20M in applications. Many small businesses won't survive without funding. Dow Chemical makes the raw materials for many plastics--everything has been going up which is affecting the price of everything.
Economists and policy makers once tied "inflation" to money supply and interest rates. Sorry, John, I don't need "statistics" (from who?) to tell me that any change in the interest rate today--up or down--would have little affect on the price of bread on the table, energy to heat my home next winter, or gas to get to work.
While there are many in government (hey, it's an election year!) who still are debating whether or not we are in a recession, there are those living it.
If none of this affects you, great. It's affecting most of the country. I don't know whose statistics you would believe, but just read the paper, turn on NPR, read the WSJ and make an intelligent value judgement about what is happening in the country.
Now John, let me play Devil's Advocate with you. You asked for statistics to back up what I said about a depression. Nobody in power would ever admit we are in a depression.
Let me ask you--what is a depression or recession? What can you show me that might prove we are NOT in one? I pointed you to many depressing articles here about our economy and the things affecting it. Can you show me anything with any good news? Good news that would be good for our country?
Rather then ask a pointed question with no real answer, if you don't believe what I suggest, show me the good news. And show it to me in a way that at least here in Michigan, we'd believe it. All the tens of thousand who have lost their jobs homes and businesses this year alone.
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I think its more of a Stag-flation like the Carter era.
I see nothing wrong with making people pay more money for gas for gas guzzlers (non-commercial). No one is forcing them to drive a behemoth.
There could be an annual allotment of gallons per driver at the baseline price after they exceed that amount, the price goes up.
Of course then there would be a market for people who get driver's licenses without cars so they could sell their allotment on craig's list.
The rich would only drive cars owned by a corporation and get out of it through a commercial vehicle loophole...leaving the middle class bearing the burden in our already bell curve graduated tax system.
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quote:
Let me ask you--what is a depression or recession? What can you show me that might prove we are NOT in one? I pointed you to many depressing articles here about our economy and the things affecting it. Can you show me anything with any good news? Good news that would be good for our country?
The difference between a depression and recession of course is largely a matter of which university the economist speaking on television went to - it is an academic matter of definition. Generally it has to do with the duration of the receding economy and/or lack of economic growth. For people who have lost their jobs and homes, it is a distinction without difference.
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quote:
Originally posted by mdsalemi
[What statistics would you believe?
I would believe the accepted definition of a recession by economists, the financial community and government...two consecutive quarters of negative GDP growth, not less GDP growth, but negative GDP growth. That is not happening now and is not even close to a depression (not seen since the 30s). Unemployment at 5.5% is not extreme by any measure, but up from the 4.5% level that has become "normal." Certain industries and certain groups of individuals are experiencing recessionary and even depressionlike circumstances, unfortunate, but a consequence of any economy going through change and adjustment from circumstances and sectors that were excessively over or underpriced. The U.S. economy as a whole, as of this date, is not in recession and has held up remarkably well in the face of very strong headwinds. How long this will continue? Anybody's guess.
Good news? At least for me...
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3050/2593488755_b701a31c46.jpg)
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"Can you show me anything with any good news? Good news that would be good for our country?"
I saved money on my car insurance. :)
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An alternative to the rising fuel prices
(http://www.foxnews.com/images/388583/0_21_070208_roush2.jpg)
:D
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You misunderstood my point.
quote:
Originally posted by scoot
quote:
Originally posted by Chad
The solution to a problem is never going to be to discourage the efforts and employment/free market of those who may in fact be talented enough to find a better solution to it.
...which works fine for those talented enough to find a solution. Too bad that the world is made up of those with more talent and those with less talent... Shall we just say F-it to the people with less talent but who still try? I don't think that's what our country is about.
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quote:
Originally posted by scoot
Too bad that the world is made up of those with more talent and those with less talent...
Really? We should all be of the same talent?
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quote:
Originally posted by thelews
Really? We should all be of the same talent?
No. But those with more talent might have to assume some social responsibility for those with less talent rather than just saying that they should have worked harder to make their lives better.
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I've recently changed the rear axle in my car from a 3.92 to a 3.46 and have just completed my first long journey of approx 200 miles and managed 27mpg with the A/C on for half the journey. Not bad as my previous average was 18/22mpg.
David Brough
1969 280Sl Auto with A/C & 3.46 Axle
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congrats...welcome to the club.
quote:
Originally posted by DavidBrough
I've recently changed the rear axle in my car from a 3.92 to a 3.46 and have just completed my first long journey of approx 200 miles and managed 27mpg with the A/C on for half the journey. Not bad as my previous average was 18/22mpg.
David Brough
1969 280Sl Auto with A/C & 3.46 Axle
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I justify driving the Pagoda with its very poor (by today's standards) fuel economy in two ways:
(1) I drive it slow; driving at 55 MPH instead of 75 MPH makes a huge difference
(2) my daily driver gets excellent mileage (11 km per liter on average, including a lot of city driving) while my peers at work mostly drive cars that are much less fuel-efficient.
So I figure on average it balances out. Plus with the aesthetic benefits I provide for the environment ("My what a beautiful car you have!") I think that accounts for something as well.
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quote:
Originally posted by cees klumper
I justify driving the Pagoda with its very poor (by today's standards) fuel economy in two ways:
(1) I drive it slow; driving at 55 MPH instead of 75 MPH makes a huge difference
(2) my daily driver gets excellent mileage (11 km per liter on average, including a lot of city driving) while my peers at work mostly drive cars that are much less fuel-efficient.
So I figure on average it balances out. Plus with the aesthetic benefits I provide for the environment ("My what a beautiful car you have!") I think that accounts for something as well.
Also our Pagodas are 100% "green" in that they are "recycled" cars, not rotting away in a landfill, and we did not cause another new car to be built by buying one :)
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Hi All, I was paying $2 a liter in UK. Until I moved to Dubai where I could get petrol for the same price as water about 40 cent a liter. I will let you know soon how much it will cost me to fill my pogada as it is ariving in mid July. As Jerry mentioned if US will not drill its own oil and rely on the middle east, I suppose every one in the west will suffer.
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David,
I've followed your axel rebuild epic with interest. I am thinking that I should hold out for 1:3,29 (I have a 4.08 on my 230 SL). My car does 65 mph at 3500 rpm. What do you get now and what did you get before? In other words, can you tell me what difference in rpm for MPH you've seen with the change?
And are you going to the Brooklands event in Aug?
James
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I was just reading about a company that is developing genetically altered E. Coli bacteria that converts sugar to hydrocarbons. Their goal is a net zero carbon emmissions by having the sugar cane absorb the carbon emitted by using the fuel they produce.
They are in the process of building the industrial level processing and already have the E. Coli fuel makers at the lab level.
Their theory is that there are enough people working on hydro-carbon alternatives, so why not work on a better way to create what we already use.
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"As Jerry mentioned if US will not drill its own oil and rely on the middle east, I suppose every one in the west will suffer"
I'd say that everyone in the West will suffer for an extremely short time on Earth's time scale. It will even be a short time on the scale of recorded history.
What did the middle east have before oil as an export? What will it have after it is gone? Its oil boom will be a blink of the eye. I hope they have a backup plan.
On the upside...at least they won't have us sticking our noses in their business anymore.
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I will not be surprised to see gas prices as high as $20/gallon in the *near* future. All due to the fact that the US Dollar's value is plummeting from the fed bailing out the banks, decreasing interest rates to stimulate borrowing (to name a few). With the decreased value of the dollar, we will be paying more money for foreign oil. Keep in mind that as the feds increase the money supply, the dollar's value decreases even more (think about the law of supply and demand). As the dollar value decreases even more, the cost of gas will surely increase to offset the cost. The feds cannot sustain the economy by printing more money. The entire market needs to balance out to get out of this debacle. For it to balance out, interest rates need to increase by 20%, gas needs to increase by $20+/gallon. The after effect will be severe unemployment (companies cannot borrow money at at too high of a rate) and the housing market will collapse even more since rates are too high. This is scary...
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quote:
Originally posted by Sigman
I will not be surprised to see gas prices as high as $20/gallon in the *near* future. All due to the fact that the US Dollar's value is plummeting from the fed bailing out the banks, decreasing interest rates to stimulate borrowing (to name a few). The feds cannot sustain the economy by printing more money. The entire market needs to balance out to get out of this debacle. For it to balance out, interest rates need to increase by 20%, gas needs to increase by $20+/gallon. The after effect will be severe unemployment (companies cannot borrow money at at too high of a rate) and the housing market will collapse even more since rates are too high. This is scary...
You are right, interest rates are usually crucial to inflation. But, everything I have read lately suggests that the in the near future rates will climb, the dollar will rise, and inflation will ease.
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quote:
Originally posted by benzportland
You are right, interest rates are usually crucial to inflation. But, everything I have read lately suggests that the in the near future rates will climb, the dollar will rise, and inflation will ease.
You're correct (in a very simple explanation). Keep in mind that inflation hasn't really taken hold yet even tough we are experiencing it through increases in gas and food costs. We are still at the tip of the iceberg. Also as inflation grows, interest must grow proportionately. No one will invest their money when interest rates are, say, 4% while inflation is at 12%.
The feds have really screwed up royally. To properly balance the market, rates will need climb at a MUCH higher rate (at least 5x todays rate). The dollar will only stabilize if the rates increase AND if the feds stop creating more money (i.e. the tax stimulus checks, bailing out more banks, etc). The demand for the dollar is extremely low (i.e. CAD is at par with the USD) and it is expected to drop even more. The oversupply of the USD will drive the internationals rates higher.
Yikes!
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From what I see inflation is at its highest so far this decade right now, and it will probably grow some, but most economists are saying there is no reason to believe it will grow exponentially. Same for interest rates, raising them to 5x current is unlikely, and not necessary. Under current circumstances it could kill GDP, which is critical. Fortunately investing is still very high, just not in money markets and CD's. Even when CD's were paying around 10% on average they were still a relatively terrible investment considering costs and taxes - no one truly built substantial capitol going that route. There are strong advantages to decreasing rates, and we have experienced those. Exports are much higher now and other currencies are actually falling as a result in many nations, so it is all relative.
quote:
You're correct (in a very simple explanation). Keep in mind that inflation hasn't really taken hold yet even tough we are experiencing it through increases in gas and food costs. We are still at the tip of the iceberg. Also as inflation grows, interest must grow proportionately. No one will invest their money when interest rates are, say, 4% while inflation is at 12%.
The feds have really screwed up royally. To properly balance the market, rates will need climb at a MUCH higher rate (at least 5x todays rate). The dollar will only stabilize if the rates increase AND if the feds stop creating more money (i.e. the tax stimulus checks, bailing out more banks, etc). The demand for the dollar is extremely low (i.e. CAD is at par with the USD) and it is expected to drop even more. The oversupply of the USD will drive the internationals rates higher.
Yikes!
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quote:
Originally posted by benzportland
From what I see inflation is at its highest so far this decade right now, and it will probably grow some, but most economists are saying there is no reason to believe it will grow exponentially. Same for interest rates, raising them to 5x current is unlikely, and not necessary. Under current circumstances it could kill GDP, which is critical. Fortunately investing is still very high, just not in money markets and CD's. Even when CD's were paying around 10% on average they were still a relatively terrible investment considering costs and taxes - no one truly built substantial capitol going that route. There are strong advantages to decreasing rates, and we have experienced those. Exports are much higher now and other currencies are actually falling as a result in many nations, so it is all relative.
Understood. Keep in mind that in order to re-balance the system, drastic changes must occur. No one is saving money in banks they may have investments but it does not drive the economy. Those investments are moving to international waters where it is much more lucrative.
The lower rates are more to benefit companies so they can borrow and grow their company and increase jobs...etc..etc. Mortgage rates are indirectly affected by the lowering of the fed rates. Look what happened to the housing market. The banks AND buyers made critical errors in judgment. That money they borrowed were all created out from thin air (i.e. 100% loans AND interest only options) and artificially inflated the housing market. Once their loan reset, they cant keep their home. Instead of making the banks and buyers pay for their mistakes and inevitably make the market balance itself out. The feds bailed the banks out and gave the borrowers a reprieve. Where did they feds get that money? No where... they just printed the money to pay them off. How are we going to pay it all back? The problems are still inherent and will not be solved by placing band aids. The levees will eventually give way.
What I'm saying about the future is worse case scenario but it is not unreasonable to think that. Granted I was just a kid in the 80s, I heard that rates were as high as 20% around that time.. and the 70's too. After that it took the economy to balance itself out.
We're going to be on a bumpy ride!
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Not to sound too cynical but what I "think about gas prices" is that a relatively small number of people and compaines/some goverments worldwide are becoming tremendously wealthy at the expense of of the general population of the US and many other industrialzed countries. I simply cannot believe that oil prices are going up so high so fast based on the supply and demand model. Yes countries like India and China are consuming ever more oil but the tremendous run up that has occured over a short time during the past year is not happening simply because of supply and demand. In my opinion which I think is shared by many is that speculators, oil compaines, and other groups and goverments are taking deliberate actions to effect the market and those actions are solely intended to run up the price and benefit their respective bank accounts. The sad part is this is and will continue to have widespread negative impact on the economy. Millions of people will pay so a small number can rake in vast wealth. I'm fortunate to be in a good financial situation so I can weather this, at least for now.....But how are elderly people on fixed incomes going ro pay $5.00 a gallon and more for heating oil in the coming winter?? It's a sad situation and our political leaders need to do something to improve this situation or we will all be screwed.
OK That's my 2 cents! :-)
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark280SL
... a relatively small number of people and compaines/some goverments worldwide are becoming tremendously wealthy at the expense of of the general population of the US and many other industrialzed countries
They know time is running out, so they're trying to go out with a bang! :twisted:
quote:
... and our political leaders need to do something to improve this situation or we will all be screwed.
How can one hand curb the actions of the other? [:(!] :evil:
Just my 429 cents (worth only about 17 miles). :?
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maybe..... but I think we are the ones getting banged!
quote:
Originally posted by waqas
quote:
Originally posted by Mark280SL
... a relatively small number of people and compaines/some goverments worldwide are becoming tremendously wealthy at the expense of of the general population of the US and many other industrialzed countries
They know time is running out, so they're trying to go out with a bang! :twisted:
quote:
... and our political leaders need to do something to improve this situation or we will all be screwed.
How can one hand curb the actions of the other? [:(!] :evil:
Just my 429 cents (worth only about 17 miles). :?
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I kind of like this too...check it out.
www.pickensplan.com/
He may have ulterior motives but at least the guy has a plan. I haven't heard much from the other "leading experts" out there, if there is such a thing.
I don't know if I like the idea of a natural gas pagoda though?????
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What do I think of gas prices? I think I am glad my Pagoda doesn't run on $15 a gallon Starbucks Lattes or I heat my house with $30,000 a gallon Chanel #5. And that's what I think------If I could just get it to run on the BS on the TV. 250mpg.
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Channel #5 = Perfume Powered Pagoda
quote:
Originally posted by glennard
What do I think of gas prices? I think I am glad my Pagoda doesn't run on $15 a gallon Starbucks Lattes or I heat my house with $30,000 a gallon Chanel #5. And that's what I think------If I could just get it to run on the BS on the TV. 250mpg.
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Now that's a Chick Magnet!!!
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Intersting article (to me anyway). The scariest part of the q&a concerning speculation was this.
quote:
The institutional investors, which consist of but is not confined to state pension funds and university endowments from the United States, have been pouring funds into indexed commodity funds as part of a strategy of portfolio diversification.
The traditional assets, in which they would have otherwise invested in, namely stocks and bonds, have been yielding negative returns after inflation.
These investors can buy futures contracts with only a 5 per cent margin down payment. In addition the regulatory environment is very slack, filled with loopholes which bypass whatever few regulations that are on the books.
http://english.aljazeera.net/business/2008/07/200879184520258575.html
Wasn't it trading like this that brought about the depression in the late twenties?
Mike C.
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Me thinks we should start a futures market in Pagodas-- The PPP-Predicted Pagoda Price. Let's start bidding up the speculated price by at least double the current. We'll do press releases - 'Supply is about to dry-up!' - 'Demand soars for Pagodas', 'Every Chinaman wants a 113', 'Brazilian repo maker unable to fill Pagoda orders', 'Government initiates rationing of Pagodas', 'Rich Qatari hoards thousands of Pagodas and refuses to sell', yada, yada, yada-------We're rich.
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With the fall of IndyMac, my forecast of gas prices going to $20/gallon keeps getting closer. Inflation will increase more and more as the Feds print more money to bail out (in the near future) Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.
To think of it, $20/gallon may be a little low.
Cheers,
Michael
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quote:
Originally posted by Sigman
With the fall of IndyMac, my forecast of gas prices going to $20/gallon keeps getting closer. Inflation will increase more and more as the Feds print more money to bail out (in the near future) Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.
To think of it, $20/gallon may be a little low.
Cheers,
Michael
The FDIC has 58 billion in assets. They aren't printing money to bail out a 10% situation, the third largest in history. During the S&L bailout of yore, 1000 institutions went under.
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You got it. $5 for the gas and $15 for the TAXMAN. :twisted:
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quote:
Originally posted by thelews
The FDIC has 58 billion in assets. They aren't printing money to bail out a 10% situation, the third largest in history. During the S&L bailout of yore, 1000 institutions went under.
Understood. I'm referring to the mortgage industry rather the banking industry. The FDIC does not cover mortgages. The IndyMac failure should cost the FDIC under $10 billion. Not all banks will collapse. The mortgage industry will. Freddie and Fannie Mae funds approx. one half of the mortgages in the U.S. If/when the two fail, they will not doubt be printing money. When that happens the dollar's value will decrease some more and inflation will increase. US gas prices will be ridiculous.
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...as I keep saying, show me some good news...please??
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quote:
...as I keep saying, show me some good news...please??
I don't think I've mentioned it before, but I'm an engineer working in land development, so things are pretty bleak right now. But our company has been around since 1960 and have seen many ups and downs in the market and learned how to ride it out. So while our business is slow, I was very pleased to hear that the receptionist at our company was seriously looking at buying a house because the crazy prices here in Silicon Valley have dipped a little to where she could afford to buy a home. So from a big picture perspective I think there's a silver lining to all of this.
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I have it on good authority that the sun will come up tomorrow, the tomatos will be redder, and the Pagoda will start. What more can I ask?
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Just finished putting the 1970 BSA Firebird back together and it's running like a top. Tank only holds three gallons though... good for 150 to 200 miles.
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quote:
Originally posted by mdsalemi
...as I keep saying, show me some good news...please??
The good news is that the market will recover... as long as the feds let the market correct itself... Let the inevitable happen... The market cannot recover when there is no crash...
One little tid bit on IndyMac, it had $19 BILLION in total DEPOSITS as of March 2008. When there was a run for $1.3 billion, they gave up and let the Feds take over because they feared that they cannot cover anymore withdrawals. Why? It's because a majority of their assets were tied into mortgages. As property values drop more and more, the mortgages become worthless.