New member, need some help :-[

[taiginda]

Hi, i'm tai from thailand.
I'm interest to buy the 250 sl model, but had some issue

my 250 sl car history as the seller said it's come from japan. but i see the orginal car reciepe that from usa (i didnt concern about this point)

The Problem is some document  that i found in this car (i guess it come with the car as original), The VIN number is 113043-12-000099 // but the VIN number at car is 113043-12-008099
and as i know the 250sl production number is just  5196. so i guess something went wrong with this vin number
the real VIN should be 113043-12-000099 // (the car already register in thailand as 008099, so i think i cant do anything about that)

what is your guy opinion ?? , should i invest in this car or not

anyway this car come with the price that below thailand market standard with many part of interior.

so if it's not the big deal, i will consider to buy this car

[taiginda]

Anyway, some part of this car is had to fix also, and the engine is not original

[SEB]

Hi
I am not an expert in this field, but as an owner also of a 250SL Pagoda I feel a little called in to the board.
May be this is an human mistake?
As I purchased my 250SE Coupe, car with a replacement engine- in the data card was the engine number 129.980-12-xxxxxx, but on the replacement engine somebody stamp 129.981-12-xxxxxx.

[lreppond]

I’m am not an expert by any stretch.  But I think the least of this car’s problems is it’s VIN!   Parts seem to be missing and there appears to be visible rust damage.  I would guess the rust is far more extensive than what one can see. 

I would locate a trained professional, experienced in w113s, to fully inspect this car and give you an unbiased appraisal of its current condition and what it will take to get it safe and running properly.

[MikeSimon]

That is strange indeed. It looks like the car at one time was owned by a U.S. Military member (APO address) maybe stationed in Germany (Mainz dealer invoice for repairs)
Maybe he bought it in Germany with US specs. Common practice for military members.
The VIN number stamped on the frame rail is indeed strange. It almost looks like it was restamped. Why would it say ..8099??

[taiginda]

Hi
I am not an expert in this field, but as an owner also of a 250SL Pagoda I feel a little called in to the board.
May be this is an human mistake?
As I purchased my 250SE Coupe, car with a replacement engine- in the data card was the engine number 129.980-12-xxxxxx, but on the replacement engine somebody stamp 129.981-12-xxxxxx.

i Hope it will be this reason 

I’m am not an expert by any stretch.  But I think the least of this car’s problems is it’s VIN!   Parts seem to be missing and there appears to be visible rust damage.  I would guess the rust is far more extensive than what one can see. 

I would locate a trained professional, experienced in w113s, to fully inspect this car and give you an unbiased appraisal of its current condition and what it will take to get it safe and running properly.

thank you for your recommend, as this model in thailand is very rare, so even i have to do restore and fix all problem it's still in a good price , if no problem with the vin number

That is strange indeed. It looks like the car at one time was owned by a U.S. Military member (APO address) maybe stationed in Germany (Mainz dealer invoice for repairs)
Maybe he bought it in Germany with US specs. Common practice for military members.
The VIN number stamped on the frame rail is indeed strange. It almost looks like it was restamped. Why would it say ..8099??

HI, that is my major concern. i didnt sure about the VIN number (may be mistake from restamped ? they miss the 0 to 8  )

[john.mancini]

Here's my two cents worth: Unless they give you that car for free, walk away and have an expert find you a worthy car.

[lreppond]

Here's my two cents worth: Unless they give you that car for free, walk away and have an expert find you a worthy car.

I could not agree MORE!

[Pinder]

the vin number stamping on the frame seems too clean but maybe the 250SL is supposed to look like that?

[mnahon]

When I look at that first picture of the chassis stamping, it seems as though there's a thin strip of metal on which the numbers are stamped, as opposed to the numbers being stamped on the body sheet metal.

I agree with Pinder that the stamping seems very clean, maybe too clean. Below is the stamping from another 250SL that looks more authentic.

Also, there should be a VIN plate on the car, either on the firewall or on the driver door pillar. Is it missing?

[mdsalemi]

Obsessing over a VIN and the quality of the stamping is in a word, silly.
The very obvious question isn't answered: does it run? If so, how well?
My car when inherited, was in considerably worse condition than that shown. See attached.
As for paperwork, it didn't have ANY...nothing that could be used for registration or license and insurance. That all had to be created with an inspection by state authorities.
And yet, a beautiful car emerged from restoration after 2 years and 1,000 hours. [gulp]

So, you need to assess the condition of the car, how it runs, the extent of and damage and missing parts, and your ability to afford it in remote Thailand. How difficult is it to import parts in order to complete the restoration?. I'd tend to agree with SEB that a slipped digit in the VIN may have been a human error. It may be difficult to register properly in Thailand with such an error and if so that would need to be sorted out. But how well the car runs is the first consideration. Missing parts is another as some are exceedingly costly.

[mBdrvr]

You shoukld contact Mercedes-Benz Owners Club of Thailand. They are recognized by Mercedes-Benz Classic as a "Brand" club.

They have a Facebook page and probably other ways to contact them.

Someone there will be able to guide you.

[Pinder]

Ill stick with my observation that that vin number appears to be scribed and not stamped. But maybe it does not matter as long as the vin is there and overall condition is good.

[Benz Dr.]

The VIN was stamped into the frame rail first and then the whole body was coated with primer when the car was built. The VIN area was covered with a piece of masking tape and then the body was painted.
This attempt was poorly masked and painted at one point but the numbering with font looks OK to me.   

[Jordan]

Am I missing something?  There is no 250SL with the VIN number stamped on the frame rail.  I don't care how good or bad the car looks, the VIN doesn't exist so something is definitely off here.

[MikeSimon]

Am I missing something?  There is no 250SL with the VIN number stamped on the frame rail.  I don't care how good or bad the car looks, the VIN doesn't exist so something is definitely off here.

Well, that's a point of view nobody has considered. I have no idea.

[Pawel66]

Am I missing something?  There is no 250SL with the VIN number stamped on the frame rail.  I don't care how good or bad the car looks, the VIN doesn't exist so something is definitely off here.

That was the original question of the author of this thread. The documents provided are stating the correct VIN number. There is a wrong VIN number on the chassis. It is difficult to imagine how this could happen, not assuming someone's bad will. I foresee lots of legal issues and unnecessary uncertainty. I would walk away from this car, leaving it up to the current owner to clarify.

[johnk]

I certainly don’t know about Thailand but in Ohio I was told their is a not to difficult correction process if the VIN is off a number, specially if the wrong number is out of the manufacturers sequence.

[taiginda]

Hi, thank for all info from this community. It’s help me so much.

At first, the w113 market price in thailand is around 200,000-250,000 US.Dollar (not fully restore price) and nobody sell

This car is around 100,000 US.Dollar and i also cannot effort 200,000 US.Dollar
And for restoration cost, i can do it slowly

In thailand we have many case about iilegal car
But anyway this car the owner garuntee for the tranfer process ( in thailand it’s mean legal 95%)

The point is

1. 8099 is the wrong number right?(from the production number, i didn’t sure, does it can assume that 0001 is the first car and the 8099 is the number of production or it can be 8099 in theory)

2. I will find more picture at driver door pillar and firewall for more info .

IMO
If this wrong vin number, are from the human error or from  the  error of restamped  not from the other reason, personally, i thought i’m ok to take a chance.

(In thailand we have many complicated issue ex. Half frame car, VIN replace that the issue i worried)

[Jordan]

taiginda, the problem you have is that the VIN on the paperwork does not match the VIN for the car.  There were only 5196 250SL's made so the first 250SL would have been 000001 and the last one would have been 005196.  There was never a 250SL with the VIN ending in 008099.  It is not human error on the part of Mercedes Benz.

There should be a VIN tag on the firewall.  What does it tell you?  Is the VIN number on the frame rail stamped into the frame rail or into a steel strip attached to the frame rail?  It is difficult to tell from the picture. 

[johnk]

If the machine that stamped the VIN number jammed and stamped the number off by one digit do you thing Mercedes’ would destroy the chassis? They might have caught it until after the car was built.  Who knows.

[mdsalemi]

Is the car in Thailand now? If not, this may be too much trouble to sort out. If you cannot get further information on the actual car (as opposed to paperwork) to ensure that the paperwork is indeed for this car, this may be trouble...especially in Thailand. If the car is already there

As for accidental stamping that is entirely possible. One non-automotive item whose records are as meticulous as Mercedes, and whose products are restored just as often, are Steinway pianos. I have one that has been restored. The serial number of the piano indicated that it was one model, and delivered to a dealer in San Francisco in April, 1918. Well, that didn't really mesh with the information I had. In examining the piano further I found another stamping of the number on a hidden wood piece. That number was correct: and digits were transposed, purely by accident, in the restoration. Stuff happens. There was nothing nefarious in the case of my piano--but there are some unscrupulous people out there with cars.

One would think in a carefully crafted operation to cheat someone or present a car with a questionable background as honest, they would have at least made the numbers match!

[MikeSimon]

What about Jordan's comment about no 250SL with the VIN stamped on the frame rail? Is this correct?

[mdsalemi]

What about Jordan's comment about no 250SL with the VIN stamped on the frame rail? Is this correct?

Best if someone with an untouched 250SL answers that...but the answer would only be accurate if suffixed by "...from the factory as new."

It isn't uncommon for some people to stamp VINs or other identifying marks on some solid piece of a car. A data tag is--and can be--easily removed. Mine was. Had to have one fabricated. Thankfully the little tag stuck on the inside of the windscreen was there on mine...and even with two windshield changes they always put it back.

[Pinder]

Sometimes you have to take a chance. If the metal is solid.

[johnk]

I have to ask, what’s the cost/probability of shipping a really nice one from the US without all of the issues and a lot less expensive to buy?

[Pinder]

I was thinking the same.

[MikeSimon]

I am still unclear about this and nobody wants to answer this: My 1971 280SL has the VIN stamped in the metal on the frame rail. Did 250SLs have that too?

[Pawel66]

Mike, which location exactly - the lateral member under the inlet pipe?

[Jonny B]

My 250 SL, early car, has the VIN stamped on  the frame rail, just under the inlet manifold.

[JamesL]

I have to ask, what’s the cost/probability of shipping a really nice one from the US without all of the issues and a lot less expensive to buy?

May well be a load less expensive to buy and shipping US to Asia cannot be a fortune BUT  I'd guess import duties might be a big factor that end.

Quick google: At present, cars are subjected to an 80% import tax while parts and components enjoy 30% duties.... The Customs Department reported that personal used car imports in 2018 totalled at 100 units. Starting Dec. 10, Thailand will no longer allow imports of used cars to reduce pollution, curtail smuggling and improve road safety. ... Those that violate the ban face penalties of up to 10 years in prison or a fine equal to five times the value of the imported goods – as specified by import law.(Bangkok Post, July 219)

 I'm guessing skilled metalwork guys are "cheap" in my terms so if the car is there and is what it purports to be, buy/restore is the only realistic option. But you could argue that with a completely closed market/finite supply, even a dodgy VIN print would find a local buyer eventually - though exporting may be more of a challenge

[kampala]

I am still unclear about this and nobody wants to answer this: My 1971 280SL has the VIN stamped in the metal on the frame rail. Did 250SLs have that too?

of course 250sl's have vin stamped on frame rail just like all other w113's (yes mine has it). 

I think what Jordan intended is that PARTICULAR vin (8099?) does not exist in a 250 vin.  8099 is possible in a 230 or a 280 but there were only about 5,000 250's so an 8099 would not exist.

[mdsalemi]

I have to ask, what’s the cost/probability of shipping a really nice one from the US without all of the issues and a lot less expensive to buy?

Two interesting things to say about that. Under normal circumstances and to a normal country with normal rules and regulations that are clear and well-defined and shall we say to Western morals, that is a good question to ask.

For those that have my book Pagoda Style, there is an interesting story about the import of a car into Spain… it wasn’t all that easy. The owners name was Vince Mulvey.

The other thing I have to add is about import of hard goods into Thailand. Some years back when I was in the computer business I sold a lot of computer hardware for printing--7 tons, in crates. We arranged export from Boston and the buyer arranged import into Bangkok. When it came time to clear through customs there were of course some problems for the new owners. And, honest to goodness, the solution to the problem was going down to the customs office with briefcases full of cash. This was the only way to clear the items through customs: payoffs. If I hadn’t seen it for myself I wouldn’t have believed it. As a farang (foreigner) in Thailand this is not something I would’ve even attempted; but the local who had bought the equipment from me knew what had to be done. While in the end it was relatively easy it certainly was not cheap. But he knew that going in.

As a sidebar to that latter story, those crates--custom fabricated in Boston out of OSB and 2 x 4s, proved to be a valuable scrap commodity in Bangkok. They ended up being repurposed into furniture in a local restaurant. I didn't know that until I sat down at the restaurant and saw my company name stenciled on the table!

[Pinder]

I was reading up some more on this and process of import into Thailand. Its seems like if you are working there you can import a car temporarily. IF you want to keep it there a 200% tax has to be paid. or something along those lines. hence why if there is a car there already with a good vin or not it might be worth taking on the risk.

[taiginda]

Hi, more detail here

[taiginda]

 

[taiginda]

 

[taiginda]

 

[Jordan]

From your pictures I would be even more concerned about this car.  There is no data plate and there doesn't appear to be a VIN tag.  The VIN tag should be located on the firewall (circled area).  Can you run your fingers over the firewall to see if you can feel something underneath?  If you can maybe you can lift the firewall pad. 

I can't tell from the pic but is that an engine tag that says 230SL?

Your pictures just reinforce my belief in walking away from this car.  No data plate, no VIN tag and the VIN on the frame is for a car that does not exist.

[kampala]

It only got worse.

No vin tag
No data plate - and screw holes covered up, seems intentional to me
No soft top frame $$$
Rust in first batch of photos
Wrong VIN stamp
Not sure if panel gaps are a mess or door not closed properly.


Would you ever be able to sell this mixed car with wrong vin etc etc etc when you eventually want to sell?  Who would buy it?

Even with massive duties if you import a car that needs a lot of work, that you buy for 40% of the cost of this car, at least it would be what the paperwork and data plate, vin tag, stamp say it is.   I know labor costs in your country may be quite affordable, but parts are parts. Getting a complete car with legitimate docs that needs lots of labor would be my choice.  And you can sell it later.

[114015]

Aslam (Kampala) summed up the situation completely.
A VIN 113043-12-008099 does not exist. That's it. Most likely your car was (according to the accompanied paperwork) VIN no. 000099.
At which stage your car got "a new VIN" I don't understand. For me the area on the frame rail, where your VIN number is located,
looks "artificial"; it looks too proper. It looks to me as if it was "filled properly with lead" and a new or better readable VIN was stamped in.

If you want to go through the hassle and remove the lead with a torch and see what's underneath  - hopefully the correct VIN, or something strange..., but you may probably only do so after you have already bought the car. No seller in the world would allow so...
if I were you, go and run.
Look for a more accurate SL - at least with undoubtful legitimate paperwork and VIN.
This car here is not!

Just my 2 cents....
Achim

[mdsalemi]

You all are reading WAY too much into this about the VIN and data tags.

Even the most crooked who is going to try and pull some kind of fraud is going to do so with NUMBERS MATCHING! Is this so difficult to understand? Why would somebody knowingly try to engineer a fraudulent car and sale of car, and NOT MAKE the numbers match the paperwork? They would NOT. They would put some effort into making everything match. If you are trying to be fraudulent you don't let on at the beginning that things are not right. If that would be the case it would be far more cost effective to part the car out rather than sell it whole.

As for data plates, I've seen people with collections of them. Where do you think these come from?  When our Pagodas were, not all that long ago, just older cars that didn't get $200,000 restorations, lots of little details were overlooked. Fender notches for one; how many cars that were worked on the 1970s, and 1980s and even later, never had these put back because they didn't know? How many had data plates removed and never replaced? I'll tell you one prime example: mine. Yes, the first body work on mine (since removed and re-done) was done by a "slap and dash" taxi garage in NYC. No data plate on the body either.

Some years back, with the assistance of someone here (before the Daimler lawyers shut them down) I had a body data plate properly made. I never had one before. I can tell you with 100% certainty that my "fake" data plate is far more original in appearance than the one you can buy from the classic center, either in Germany or the USA. Yes, the fake much better than a replacement. Not as good as the original of course but that was probably laying on the floor of a taxi garage and swept into the trash decades ago.

None of this has anything to do with being able to accept a car or walk away. The original poster didn't answer several important questions, instead, he's focused on posting lots of photos of the car and the paperwork. These questions are: how does the car run? Is it already in Thailand?

[Jordan]

You all are reading WAY too much into this about the VIN and data tags.

Even the most crooked who is going to try and pull some kind of fraud is going to do so with NUMBERS MATCHING! Is this so difficult to understand? Why would somebody knowingly try to engineer a fraudulent car and sale of car, and NOT MAKE the numbers match the paperwork?

Uh, maybe it's because there are a lot of stupid people out there.  And it is absolutely ludicrous to think that MB could have made this mistake at the factory and allowed it to go to market like this.  Either that or there are bone heads working at MB as well. 

[MikeSimon]

Few may be interested in this, but the car also has the Alloy wheel spare holder in the trunk! This was installed by the factory only on late model 280SLs which were ordered with Fuchs alloys (Bundts). Of course, this could have been installed later, but the fact that the car has steel wheels is puzzling.

One thing we know for sure is, that the car with VIN ..0099 was delivered in Germany to a member of the U.S. military, and thus most likely with U.S. specs. When did the VIN plate for U.S. models move from the firewall to the door pillars?
The German repair shop invoices from the Niederlassung Mainz from 1983 refer to VIN ..0099