Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Electrical and Instruments => Topic started by: erickmarciano on March 14, 2005, 22:28:48
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just replaced the tach bushing <on engine > and I still have play is this normal?I read that I can put a shim from an injector is this ok?
thansk
Erick
1971 280sl
1962 VW
1954 Allstate vespa
1958 gs150 vespa
1962 gs160 vespa
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Hello Erick,
Yes there is a spec on the actual endplay of the gear buried somewhere in the early BBB As I recall. You can get shims to adjust the endplay to almost zero. It just so happens that the copper injector seal is the correct size. you may have to lap it a bit to adjust the thickness if too thick.
You were wise to check and repair this.
It is just not worth the risk, if the gear moves up high enough the oil pump dis-engages and the engine keeps running with no oil pressure!!! Excess movement also causes wear on expensive timing gears.
Two very important preventative measures for every W113 owner should be checking the upper oil filter seal and checking the timing gear end play!
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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I need to do this......is there a link that tells me how ?
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben
I need to do this......is there a link that tells me how?
Sure! http://www.sl113.org/forums/search.asp
Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420
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[:0]
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Tacho drive bush
New/Old
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) TachoDrv10.JPG (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/naj/2005315122839_TachoDrv10.JPG)
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Note: The top bronze ridge completely wore out and the gear was wearing into the base bush. Up/down play was 4-5mm
naj
65 230SL
68 280SL
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I think I'll bring Joe on the team here as an intern ~) The Dr. has patients and Joe probably knows how to hold a wrench......
Daniel G Caron
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where does the felt washer go?
1971 280sl
1962 VW
1954 Allstate vespa
1958 gs150 vespa
1962 gs160 vespa
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Thanks Dan,
When can I start. I'll work for food.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Shelley is a good cook and not hard to look at....
Felt washer ?????? What felt washer ?
Dan Caron's
SL Barn
benzbarn@ebtech.net
slbarn.mbz.org
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this felt seal , it was under the oil seal , si this corect?
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) seal.JPG (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/erickmarciano/2005315203821_seal.JPG)
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1971 280sl
1962 VW
1954 Allstate vespa
1958 gs150 vespa
1962 gs160 vespa
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Hello Erick,
The Vertical timing gear is also referred to as the "driveshaft for the oil pump and tachometer" in the BBB. The specified clearance for endplay is very small (0.1mm - 0.25mm) or (0.004" to 0.010").
The gear drives the oil pump and the distributor and is driven from the horizontal timing gear which drives the fuel injected pump.
The thrust piece or "aluiminum/bronze bushing" wears and allows this vertical timing gear to move upward during engine operation. In severe cases, the gear moves up enough to allow the oil pump to dis-engage and stop turning. The engine continues to run fine with no warning until the oil starvation causes mechanical failure!
Checking this endplay or wear is fairly simple. Remove the tachometer cable and insert a screw gently fingertight and move the vertical timing gear up and down to measure "endplay". As specified 0.1mm - 0.25mm (0.004" - 0.010") is ideal. Excessive wear will eventually cause premature gear wear or failure.
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) 2.JPG (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/ja17/200531605726_2.JPG)
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If you have excessive endplay the "thrust piece" (alum/bronze) bushing should be replaced and/or shimmed.
The factory recommends shimming between the bronze and aluminum part of the thrust piece. However copper injector seals can be used as shims between the gear and the thrust piece and seem to work fine. Often times the bronze portion of the thrust piece is worn uneven and must be smoothed out before shimming. Replacement of the thrust piece is best.
Removal of the thrust piece is done by removing the 22mm fitting and the 10mm hex head set screw. The thrust piece can be coaxed upward and will narrowly clear the cylinder head. The timing gear can now be removed and inspected for wear at the helicentric cut gear.
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) Removal of 10mm set screw.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/ja17/200531612142_Removal%20of%2010mm%20set%20screw.jpg)
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Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) bushing removal.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/ja17/200531611634_bushing%20removal.jpg)
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Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) removal of verticle gear.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/ja17/200531611210_removal%20of%20verticle%20gear.jpg)
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Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) Bushing wear.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/ja17/200531603838_Bushing%20wear.jpg)
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b]Download Attachment:[/b] (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) Verticle gear assembly.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/ja17/200531604126_Verticle%20gear%20assembly.jpg)
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Some owners have experienced problems installing the new thrust piece. Light wet sanding of the outer circumference and freezing the thrust piece prior to installation will help if problems arise. Normally they will install without these measures.
Endplay should be checked again after installation of the 10mm hex head set screw. Shim if needed.
The 22mm fitting has a rubber O ring beneath it along with a seal ring inside it. There is also the infamous "felt washer"!!! which is new to my experience also. We need a part number for this if it does really exist. The seal in the fitting is the most difficult part of the job. Removal from the fitting can be a challenge. Some listers have removed them by drilling them out! If you do not have a oil leak at the tach drive you may elect to leave the original seal in place. You can always replace it later.
You may want to have seals on hand before you begin. Here is a breakdown photo of the gearing with part numbers. Mike Hughes has provided updated part numbers.
Michael Hughes wrote;
" I, to, am having an oil leak at the tach drive on my 230SL with 75k and thought a little preventive maintenance might be in order as it sounds like a leak here might indicate wear below. I went across the street to the M-B dealer and ordered the thrust piece, rubber o-ring, aluminum coverplate ring (just in case, it was under $4!), and seal. The thrust piece is about $91 and the total for all parts just over $100. The parts guys really appreciated the photo detail as it made their search much easier! The part number for the thrust piece remains the same but all the rest of the part numbers have been superseded: 621 050 05 06 is now 007 997 73 46, 126 990 01 04 is now 126 990 01 40, and 120 261 00 80 became 115 274 00 60 and is now 621 997 00 40. Replacing these items looks to be fairly straightforward."
I will add photos soon to this thread so stay tuned!
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Joe, fantastic piece of information as usual!
This is the kind of information that should be under engine / engine overhaul in the “Technical Articles” in our forum. The search function is very good, but usually I end up with too many strings which I then have to read through to find what I’m looking for.
Cees, I know the group is working on the Technical Manual, but in the mean time maybe somebody could copy information like Joe’s under the chapters in the Technical Articles.
Per G. Birkeland
69 280 sl aut 834
Norway
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Hello Knirk,
Thanks, I have some additional photos which I have to compress and add to it this evening.
Joe
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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I think I know now where the felt washer goes . I think it is for the dipstick ????can this be possible?
1971 280sl
1962 VW
1954 Allstate vespa
1958 gs150 vespa
1962 gs160 vespa
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Erick,
That felt seal is a mystery. Not seen one on any of my 2 cars.
Here's a picture of the seal. It was a bear to change as Joe said.
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) TachoDrv12.JPG (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/naj/200531685839_TachoDrv12.JPG)
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I have access to reasonably priced thrust bushes 126 180 00 44.
Contact me off line if required.
naj
65 230SL
68 280SL
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quote:
Originally posted by naj
Erick,
That felt seal is a mystery. Not seen one on any of my 2 cars.
Here's a picture of the seal. It was a bear to change as Joe said.
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) TachoDrv12.JPG (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/naj/200531685839_TachoDrv12.JPG)
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I have access to reasonably priced thrust bushes 126 180 00 44.
Contact me off line if required.
naj
65 230SL
68 280SL
Does anyone have the overall length measure spec of a new thrust bush ?
Tnx
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purchased an injector washer as a shim but the shim is not as wide as the new thrust bush , will it wear uneven?can the injector seal wear to a point where it will break and go in the engine?
thanks
1971 280sl
1962 VW
1954 Allstate vespa
1958 gs150 vespa
1962 gs160 vespa
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Yes,
You are correct, the felt washer is for the late small dipsticks!
Erick,
I have never heard of any problems from using the injector seals. Many people have used this fix. The alternative is find metric shims. Shim between the bronze bushing and the aluminum in this case. Try Mc Master/Carr (order on line)for these.
http://www.mcmaster.com/
There is a nice assortment of round metric shims on page 3031 of their catalog. Their on-line catalog is fantastic and the service is excellent.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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quote:
Does anyone have the overall length measure spec of a new thrust bush ?
I make it 62.8mm ridge to ridge.
naj
65 230SL
68 280SL
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Oh, THAT felt washer...... I knew that and thought maybe it was the one. Only other felt pieces are around the heater vents,wood on the dash ( maybe ) and some parts inside the distributor.
Hey! Let's start a felt thread. ( excuse the pun )
Dan Caron's
SL Barn
benzbarn@ebtech.net
slbarn.mbz.org
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quote:
Originally posted by naj
Does anyone have the overall length measure spec of a new thrust bush ?
I make it 62.8mm ridge to ridge.
naj
naj,
Many Thanks
should be 2.473" for me over here ..
Danke
68 280SL
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trying to put it all back together and it is HARD , should the screw line up and go into the thrust piece?
1971 280sl
1962 VW
1954 Allstate vespa
1958 gs150 vespa
1962 gs160 vespa
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quote:
Originally posted by erickmarciano
trying to put it all back together and it is HARD , should the screw line up and go into the thrust piece?
1971 280sl
1962 VW
1954 Allstate vespa
1958 gs150 vespa
1962 gs160 vespa
Anybody for an electronic tach?
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Hello Erick,
You must be sure the shim you are using is not too thick. The 10mm set screw should be lined up with it's hole in the thrust piece. You can lap shim or the thrust piece to adjust ( lap with wet-dry 600 grit sandpaper on flat glass use water).
The 10mm set screw should screw easily or it may be mis-aligned. Remember some end play is acceptable.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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took me a long time to get it back together , now I have no clearance with the shim but the engine runs great with no noise , can I leave it like this? the shim I used is brass with new thrust piece . I really don't want to take it apart unless I need to
what do you think
thnaks
My car is at last restored as of today
thank you all for all your help
1971 280sl
1962 VW
1954 Allstate vespa
1958 gs150 vespa
1962 gs160 vespa
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Hello Erick,
You should be ok. I would check it again after a few thousand miles. It will probably loosen up a bit.
Those brass injector seal make good shims.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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by the way the new injector washers i ordered are steel not brass i had an old one
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quote:
Originally posted by erickmarciano
....the shim I used is brass with new thrust piece.
Should a shim be required with a new thrust piece?
Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420
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mine did
1971 280sl
1962 VW
1954 Allstate vespa
1958 gs150 vespa
1962 gs160 vespa
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quote:
Originally posted by joe alexander
The Verticle timing gear is also refered to as the "drivesahft for the oil pump and tachometer" in the BBB. The specified clearance for endplay is very small (0.1mm - 0.25mm) or (0.004" to 0.010").
.../...
The thrust piece or "aluiminum/bronze bushing" wears and allows this verticle timing gear to move upward during engine operation.
I am replacing these cross drive shafts on my car. You buy them as a pair, part No 130 050 0406. It seems M-B have identified the wear problem described by several of you in this thread, and the vertical shaft has been re-designed. See attached photo. With the new shafts you also need a new Tacho drive bushing (thrust piece). Part number for the new bushing is A615 180 0344.
On the re-designed parts, the contact (wear) area is much larger, and is lubricated more effectively.
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) Drive_shaftM129_2.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/mbzse/2005329161637_Drive_shaftM129_2.jpg)
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/Hans in Stockholm
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Hans,
Thanks for the new information, this is an important subject. I susupect the cost on these expensive new gear sets has risen also?
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Had a small oil leak at the end of the tach cable on the engine. Read this thread and thought I would check the end play on the tach cable drive. Play was in the 2 mm range. I'm looking on the McMaster site for a suitable metric shim. I plan to buy several thicknesses so I can achieve the correct play tolerance. While I'm at in this area I plan to replace the seal in the fitting, it's a bit loose and add an o ring (which is missing). Both of these should help with the small oil leak and the shim is a good preventative measure. The bronze base section on the thrust piece is slightly worn so I'll make sure to smooth it out before reassembly.
I can't thank everyone enough for their contribution on this topic. It made the project very straight forward.
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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Regarding the tach gear thrust bushing and vertical gear play: I took up most of the play (still have 1.5mm) with the only thing I had that fit properly:an aluminum washer. Is there a problem driving the car for about a week while I wait on a new bushing? I just could not bear to put the thing back together with the slop I had.
Thanks for your opinion,
Greg
'64 230sl, fully sorted out...ooops, spoke too soon
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Hello Greg,
It should be just fine.
Joe
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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If one wants to use an aluminum shim and have a single, renewed thrust piece, you can press the bronze bushing out of the casing and install the proper alum shim under the bushing and re-assemble the unit as one piece. . reface the bronze and measure the total piece length to be 2.475" [ the shim can be predetermined doing the math before inserting the shim].
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The procedure from the BBB, Modification Feb '68, for
Removal and installation of drive shaft for oil pump -- this is also refered to in this thread as the 'vertical drive'. it is the drive shaft for both the oil pump and the revolution counter ... tach. The 'horizontal drive' is referred to in the BBB as the idling gear shaft for injection pump--- refer to BBB Section 18-6/5 ==> Section 18-6, page 5, is:
There's also a section 18-6/3 which admonishes from using "bath nitrided" and non-bath nitrided shafts with one another rather than buying them in a set. There was a change sometime prior to Feb '68 which modified the two shafts to be bath nitride coated to improve the wear properties. The statement in the BBB is bolded and states
quote:
If only one of the previous pattern shafts [the pre-nitride coated ones] is replaced by a new one [a bath nitride coated one], the different wearing properties cause further damage after short mileage.
How do you tell the difference between the old (pre-nitride coated) and new (bath nitride coated) shafts? Easy... the bath nitrided shafts have a turned slot 1 mm wideon them ... but where is this turned slot to be found?
On the Idling gear shaft (horizontal injection pump drive shaft) it's in the narrow section near large end of the shaft (I'll call the large end, the 'bottom' end), the narrowing of the shaft just below the gear and above the bottom bearing surface.
On the drive shaft for the oil pump, it's also found at the bottom end (literally) in the section just below a concave groove near the bottom of the shaft.
Since my BBB version in this section is a modification thru Feb '68, there's probably been an additional modification since then because the PN's listed for these shafts are the ones that somebody else has listed (later on this thread) as having been replaced by other PN's. However, if replacing only one (for example the oil pump shaft), be sure that the one you're replacing has the groove in it that identifies it as a bath nitrided one... since it's likely, perhaps, and therefore, that the horizontal shaft buried down below will therefore also likely be a bath nitided one.... and you won't be able to purchase a new non-bath nitrided one if the oil pump shaft doesn't have the 1 mm wide slot in it at the location described above.
[my comments in brackets and italized]
Removal:
1. Back off screw plug [that's the 22mm screw on top] about 2 turns, unscrew hexagon screw with spigot [that's the 10 mm screw on the side], and by inserting a screwdriver between the screw plug [22 mm plug] and the cover disk [cover disk is first item directly beneith the screw plug], and push out the pressure piece upward. [pressure piece is the the large cylinderically thick bronze/aluminum piece, referred to in previous posts on this thread as "bushing" ]
Note: [note refers to an alternate method of extracting the pressure piece by using a special tool you fabricate by tapping and drilling another AM26 x 1.5 screw plug with an M8 thread.... ]
2. Extract helical gear/drive shaft from oil pump.
3. Completely unscrew the screw plug from the pressure piece and remove the cover disk and the rubber ring. [no mention of a felt thingy, nor one shown in the cross section diagram]
Checking:
4. Check the helical gear/drive shafter and bearing bushes [top and bottom bearing surfaces on the "bushing" into which the helical gear/drive fits] for wear and replace if necessary. [lotsa help that is ... define necessary].
Installation:
5. Fit helical gear/drive shaft and pressure piece ["bushing"] and tighten by means of hexagon screw with spigot [the 10 mm screw]. Check end play (0.1 - 0.25 mm) [0.004 - 0.010 inches] of helical gear.
Note: If end play is too small or excessive, remove pressure piece again. If end play is too small, turn the face of the bearing bushing by a suitable amount on a lathe [good luck in your garage on this one... hence the suggested method by lapping on flat glass plate] and install pressure piece again. If play is excessive, press the bearing bushing out of the pressure piece and correct end play of the helical gear by inserting the appropriate washers between the bearing bushing and pressure piece. Press bearing bushing with washer into the pressure piece and tighten he hexagon screw with spigot [the 10 mm screw]. Check end play of helical gear again.
6. Place Rubber ring and cover disk in position and tighten screw plug.
[That's all there is to it... makes it sound simple, huh?]
Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
'02 SL500 Sport
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Hello Longtooth,
Nice bit of additional information. This may indicate that switching some single gears may not be quite as dangerous as long as they are of the same type and composition? Owners may want to make the checking of the "timing gear play" part of a major tune up every few years. I suspect that, as the vertical timing gear moves further out of position from bushing wear, the wear rate of the gears increase.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio