Author Topic: 123 ignition 230SL UK  (Read 8454 times)

Russell

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123 ignition 230SL UK
« on: December 05, 2012, 09:09:38 »
hi, anyone over here fitted one themselves. i am considering doing it and wanted to find out the list of bits i need as regards coils, leads etc. i have searched and found some info about longer springs but when i contacted the UK distributor he didn't seem to have heard about longer springs, then offered two different types of unit i might be able to buy depending on if i had D Jetronic injection or something (not a clue what that might be or if i have it), then offered a few different types of coil. i dont really know enough and was half hoping they would but seemingly not so.
anyone over here done it and might be able to guide me. if you are in the south even better if i get it in and cant get the thing working  ;)

an idiots guide would be good. very fitting.

Larry & Norma

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Re: 123 ignition 230SL UK
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2012, 10:38:43 »
Hi Russell,
I have fitted a 123 ignition to my 280, basically just follow the supplied instructions.
As for the spring, the original distributor shaft sits on a spring which puts some pressure
on the shaft presumably to keep everything in the correct position. The 123 has a shaft
which is hollow or counter bored about 20mm or so (can't remember exact) so you need
a longer spring to achieve the same effect or as I did insert a piece of rod in the counter bore
to 'fill up the counter bore'. I used 12mm dia.( from memory) aluminium rod cut to correct length
and loosely held in by a piece of double sided sticky pad. You can then use the original spring
which holds every thing in place. The piece of rod must be a loose fit to allow for any side
movement of the shaft. Hope this makes sense. You are welcome to come to Southampton
if you need help.
Larry
Larry Hall (Gnuface)
2023 Ioniq6
2005 C230
1970 280SL

Jonny B

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Re: 123 ignition 230SL UK
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2012, 15:21:48 »
While not specific to any country, check out Pagoda Notes Volume 3 No 4, this is a detailed look at the installation of the 123 ignition (All issues of PNotes are available to full members)
Jonny B
1967 250 SL Auto, DB 568
1970 280 SL Auto, DB 904
1966 Morris Mini Minor

Russell

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Re: 123 ignition 230SL UK
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2012, 21:46:29 »
sorry but i am going to be a total idiot but where am i looking for pagoda notes. i even searched for it. i know it is under my nose. i am a full member so seem to be able to go anywhere.

Garry

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Re: 123 ignition 230SL UK
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2012, 21:57:26 »
Here is a link

Tech Manual, premium content, under content of interest full members, Pagoda notes.  You will also find the critically important Linkage Tour for tuning and all the other content needed for maintaining your car that is not available to Basic Members


http://www.sl113.org/wiki/Restricted/PagodaNotes
Garry Marks
Melbourne/ Kyneton, Brisbane. Australia
1969 MB 280SL 5 speed RHD SOLD.
1965 MB 230SL Auto RHD Lt Blue 334G, Top 350H, 213 Leather, Tourist Delivery.
1972 MB 280CE Auto RHD 906G Blue Grey
2005 MB A200.
2006 MB B200
2019 Izuzu DMax 4x4 with Slide-on camper.
2022 Volvo XC40 Twin Electric

Russell

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Re: 123 ignition 230SL UK
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2012, 22:34:47 »
ah thank you kindly sir much appreciated
russell

Jonny B

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Re: 123 ignition 230SL UK
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2012, 01:51:32 »
Russell, sorry about not being more clear about where to find PNotes, and Garry, thanks for sending him in the proper direction.
Jonny B
1967 250 SL Auto, DB 568
1970 280 SL Auto, DB 904
1966 Morris Mini Minor

Russell

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Re: 123 ignition 230SL UK
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2012, 06:50:07 »
Russell, sorry about not being more clear about where to find PNotes, and Garry, thanks for sending him in the proper direction.
hey no worries, i will find my way around here at some point i am sure. its great, everything you want to know is here somewhere its just that often its on the end of your nose and you cant see it for looking.

Wolfmann

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Re: 123 ignition 230SL UK
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2012, 09:51:33 »
Russell,

I heard and read about this spring problem, I bought my 123 set from Southern Carburettors and as they told me at the point of sale, no modification or new spring was required. They also recommended a replacement coil for my '64 230SL and everything worked just fine.
Steven.

Russell

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Re: 123 ignition 230SL UK
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2012, 19:15:39 »
i have no idea but yes they said that to me as well and then i pointed out the issue with the spring and they said they had never heard of it. which is a different thing to actually knowing about it..... i asked them to check with the dutch guys and whoever they spoke to .......also said they had never heard of it ....again doesnt mean knowledge on the topic... but again it depends on who you talk to. i then sent them the information (from here) about the spring so they are now off on a mission to find out as they now get why. the spring is there for a reason, i am just not sure what. so ok i know nothing but.....there is a well written article in pagoda notes about the spring. so the uk distributor knows nothing, the dutch guys making it know nothing but everyone here knows about it and even has different ideas about resolving it which is great.
ok so i am stupid... but i am not.
i am not not one to spoil a party especially as a newbie but i am not getting this.
surely people selling or distributing the product should know or if arsed could read the notes here from people at the coal face if they value their product.
oooh errr

russell

Wolfmann

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Re: 123 ignition 230SL UK
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2012, 00:34:03 »
I have done 1500 miles this tear. No problem.

With my car and the item supplied there is no spring mod' and no issue. Fact !

Russell

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Re: 123 ignition 230SL UK
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2012, 06:01:12 »
interesting. i wonder if it is there to compensate for something in the mechanical operation and then not required when you go electronic. if so you would have thought there would be some explanation with the product.

tel76

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Re: 123 ignition 230SL UK
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2012, 08:36:40 »
Hello Wolfman,
You will not have a problem,but you will in due time when the drive gear comes out of mesh with the jack shaft.
Take Larry's  advice above and fit the compensating sleeve.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2012, 09:02:10 by tel76 »
Eric

Wolfmann

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Re: 123 ignition 230SL UK
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2012, 09:46:07 »
I will have to dismantle it and have a look. I was told that no mod' was required !

I had just the same anxiety as Russell when I was buying it and made the enquiries but was told that basically I was talking rubbish. I will check it again.

mbzse

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Re: 123 ignition 230SL UK
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2012, 11:11:33 »
Quote from: Russell
.../.... the spring is there for a reason, i am just not sure what.
Well, this is kind of intricate & hard to describe in words, but...   The spiral design of the 90 degree gear drive for the distributor induces a lifting force on the distributor driveshaft (the one with the slotted coupling). When the driveshaft slides axially due to these forces, it also twists a few degrees. This twist directly affects the angle of the rotor arm, and gives corresponding mis-alignment of when sparking actually starts; i.e. your ignition timing. The axial movement happens when you quickly change your throttle setting (accelerating/decellerating).

Now, the spring is placed there in order to minimize the axial movement of the driveshaft, thus keeping your timing steady. Also see Reply #1, Larry's method of inserting a "plug" is an efficient way to be able to retain original spring and its function.

Attached is a picture showing the distributor drive shaft with slotted coupling and the little but important spring
/Hans in Sweden

.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2012, 11:28:42 by mbzse »
/Hans S

pagoden

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Re: 123 ignition 230SL UK
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2012, 07:59:07 »
Hans and I are talking about pretty much the same thing here:

The complete distributor drive assembly mechanism originates down in the base of the block in a gear mesh with the crankshaft.  [cutaway drawing in Tech Manual]  When considered as a complete assembly (all the way up through the distributor) it must, like all shafts, have some provision for end play.  The attractive solution is to contain it at each end with suitable surfaces to bear the force and friction, then add The Spring somewhere along the assembly's length where convenient.  Someone decides how much tension -- compression, actually -- is appropriate to keep the shaft constituents from banging back and forth along their length like a train in the switchyard, and without over-stressing the thrust washers and wafers that are in all the Bosch distributors I've ever had apart.  An absent or non-functional spring should allow a little variation ("wander") in the spark timing, but probably very hard for most of us mortals to detect.  This would be the result of the gear mesh at the crank end being cut an an angle (for good reasons not germaine to this topic) so distributor drive shaft end play, if undamped by the spring, would advance and retard the spark with each lengthwise movement of the shaft.  This rotation effect shows up clearly when removing or installing the distributor drive shaft: it turns maybe 15-20 degrees as it meshes with or withdraws from the drive gear.  The much smaller endplay here would give a much smaller degree of spark variation with the distributor in place but no functioning spring to contain endplay oscillations.  Someone like The Engineer could tell you more accurately how much to expect.  But even then it would move only as the engine changed back and forth from acceleration to deceleration and the reverse, in which case any such effect would be lost in the greater advance and retard of the timing mechanisms.  But there would be thousands upon thousands of small, sharp impacts all along that shaft assembly as the miles added up, stealing energy and eventually leading to enough component damage for that assembly to fail.  In fairness (read: charity) to your 'know-nothing' sources, this could take awhile, and in that sense they're right.  And, on the other hand, you'd hate the results when it broke.  
So it seems to come down to just good engineering practice to design any given shaft with proper provision for endplay, because good engineering yields longevity...and the converse definitely applies.
Or, as a practical matter it's less hard on the distributor if the forces on it from the distributor drive shaft are mediated by that spring.  Simple, eh?    ;D    
Did I mention that I sometimes miss The Engineer's postings?  Bring him back to us, Michael, or at least flip him a salute and say that he is missed and wished very well here.        Denny
 
1968/69 280SL, just+100k mi, manual 4, 3.46, both tops, 717/904

Wolfmann

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Re: 123 ignition 230SL UK
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2012, 12:54:48 »
Right !

Where do I procure a spring of the correct size that delivers the correct tension please ?

S.

Larry & Norma

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Re: 123 ignition 230SL UK
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2012, 13:36:25 »
That's why I chose to fill up the hole so I could use the original spring.
Having had time to remember, I used a bolt that was a loose fit
and cut off a the threaded shank to appropriate length. To stop this
falling out on re-assembly I used a piece of sticky pad. (I guess grease or mastic will do).
Just replace the spring and mount the 123 in situ.
Larry Hall (Gnuface)
2023 Ioniq6
2005 C230
1970 280SL