Author Topic: Next to impossible hot starting  (Read 11716 times)

jpinet

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Next to impossible hot starting
« on: June 05, 2015, 23:33:18 »
Hello O ye masters of the great Pagoda mysteries.
Once more, I am coming to you for your Pagoda wisdom.
I've rebuilt my 230SL engine and it's back in the car.
Everything was redone, injection pump included.
I adjusted the fuel rods according to the very detailed procedures on this site.
Here's my problem.
Engine easily starts from cold, idles and runs perfectly, but if I stop it and try to restart it when hot, it is next to impossible.
When engine eventually starts, it's very rough for a while and then it settles.
I had my cold start valve inspected when I had my inj. pump redone and all was good.
I did redo the wiring to my cold start valve.
I took out the plugs and they're covered in soot.
That problem did not exist before I took the engine out.
Any idea what I should be looking at?
Thanks for any input!

enochbell

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Re: Next to impossible hot starting
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2015, 00:45:44 »
The early W113 had a starting circuit that did not give enough CSV pulse on hot start.  You can go the hard way of retrofitting a suitable starting circuit that will cost a huge number but will keep your car close to original or you can install a momentary switch to allow you to actuate the CSV for a second or two on hot start to get the job done.  That will work.  You also may have a leakdown issue in one or more injectors, but the momentary switch will be, albeit clumsy, your answer.

g

kampala

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Re: Next to impossible hot starting
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2015, 01:25:43 »
Have you read this portion of Andy Burn's tale?   Sounds similar --  this link shows the solution he found --- read previous posts for clarity on the problem.

http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=18284.msg157560#msg157560
250sl - later - manual
280sl - 1971 - Auto - LSD

Aslam

66andBlue

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Re: Next to impossible hot starting
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2015, 03:19:11 »
...
When engine eventually starts, it's very rough for a while and then it settles.
. ..
Don't forget to to press the accelerator petal half way for a "warm start". This is in contrast to a cold start where you don't use it.
Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
1966 230SL automatic 334G light blue (sold)
1968 280SL automatic (now 904G midnight blue)

ctaylor738

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Re: Next to impossible hot starting
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2015, 14:34:17 »
230s have an additional relay to fire the cold start valve for a short time on starting even when the engine is hot.  It's the little round on at the back of the relays.  If this isn't working, you can have long cranks.  You can test it by hooking a test lamp between the lead at the CSV and ground and cranking the starter with a hot engine.

If it doesn't work, your options are to take the relay apart and clean the contacts, or troll ebay for a working used one.  You can also ground the wire that runs from the cold start relay to the thermo-time switch, which will cause the CSV to open when the starter is cranking.  One final option, much to Alfred's horror, is to install a modern timer relay under the dash to fire the valve for a programmable time.  I have installed this on several cars with good results and have figured out a kit that allows it to be installed without re-wiring.  PM or email me for details.
Chuck Taylor
1963 230SL #00133
1970 280SL #13027 (restored and sold)
1966 230SL #15274 (sold)
1970 280SL #14076 (sold)
Falls Church VA

ja17

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Re: Next to impossible hot starting
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2015, 11:58:10 »
Since your engine started fine previously, you probably have a malfunction happening since the engine work. You have to go through all the steps to diagnose the problem. First do a fuel pressure check. Make sure the fuel return line going to the fuel tank is clear. Make sure that the check valve (pressure valve) on the return line at the IP is in place and functioning. Check to see that the intake starting valve is activated when cold or hot (version 3) when the starter is activated. Make sure that the injection pump starting solenoid is activated when cold or hot also, when the starter is activated.

Check back with us if you find a problem or need more information.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

jpinet

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Re: Next to impossible hot starting
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2015, 15:41:07 »
Thanks all for your input. I'm inclined to go Joe's way as everything worked perfectly before my engine rebuild. And again, the engine starts and runs perfectly from cold. The hard starting problem is when warm.

wwheeler

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Re: Next to impossible hot starting
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2015, 04:53:00 »
Have you ever determined whether the engine is lean or rich during the hot start?
Wallace
Texas
'68 280SE W111 coupe
'60 220SE W128 coupe
'70 Plymouth Roadrunner 440+6

jpinet

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Re: Next to impossible hot starting
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2015, 11:47:54 »
Have you ever determined whether the engine is lean or rich during the hot start?

Given how black my plugs are, it's way too rich, but I'm not sure if that come from regular running or when I try to start it.

I'll take the plugs out right after stopping it form a cold start and look at my plugs before trying to restart it from warm.

Again, engine starts and runs perfectly from cold.

If I stop it when warm, then very very hard to start.

jpinet

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Re: Next to impossible hot starting
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2015, 11:53:09 »
Since your engine started fine previously, you probably have a malfunction happening since the engine work. You have to go through all the steps to diagnose the problem. First do a fuel pressure check. Make sure the fuel return line going to the fuel tank is clear. Make sure that the check valve (pressure valve) on the return line at the IP is in place and functioning. Check to see that the intake starting valve is activated when cold or hot (version 3) when the starter is activated. Make sure that the injection pump starting solenoid is activated when cold or hot also, when the starter is activated.

Check back with us if you find a problem or need more information.
Joe,
I can understand checking intake starting valve and IP solenoid, but if it starts and runs perfectly from cold, wouldn't that eliminate issues with fuel pressure, fuel return line and check valve at the IP? I'm diving into this today as I have free time.

ja17

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Re: Next to impossible hot starting
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2015, 13:05:31 »
As the engine warms-up the WRD leans the fuel mixture as you probably know. So hot starts happen at the leanest engine cycle. This typically can add to hot start problems. Now if there is any other contributions to lean running during this period, the problem can be severe. First, all starting aids have to be functioning correctly during this period. Any other factors causing lean running must be corrected. Basic setting of the injection system "too lean" will aggravate the problem. Check engine during warm running with the split linkage test.

Low fuel pressure can be another item causing lean running.  As fuel pressure drops, the system leans out. Problems which may cause low fuel pressure can be:  a clogged delivery system (tank screen, defective elec. fuel pump or clogged screen in fuel pump, clogged main filter, or improper connection of fuel lines at IP or inoperative fuel regulator/check valve. Fuel pressure effects  critical fuel volume, and circulation also.  Large volume of fuel continually circulates through the system Starting at the fuel tank, and returning to the fuel tank. This continuous volume of fuel cools the IP and the fuel itself as it circulates. If the fuel volume or pressure is low, the fuel system will become leaner. and hotter. Fuel can actually boil or vapor lock in the IP or the injector lines in severe cases. Good fuel volume and pressure during start up, helps clear the lines and cool the fuel system. This is why a plugged fuel return line can cause sever starting problems, since the fuel cannot circulate or cool the system. Dan C. has suggested that the "swirl effect" in the fuel tank "flower pot", actually contributes to the fuel cooling. This makes sense.

If  you are not using an original electric fuel pump, and the replacement is not up to specs, this may be your issue, even though the engine runs fine. Starting problems, especially when hot, are a sign that the after-market elec. fuel pump, may not be up to the task.

If the check valve/reg. at the IP is not functioning correctly the pressure may be too low or it may not be allowing fuel to return to the tank. This will cause the fuel system to run warm, cause vapor locking and hard hot starting.

Identify which starting aids are used on your engine. Look at the chart and information in the "starting aid tour".  Make sure your system is operating as it should. Some systems use the starting aids during warm and cold starting.  

The CSV on the intake can become clogged. Some have a fine fuel screen built in the intake fitting, clear it.  Sometimes the fuel jet itself becomes restricted, clear it. Test the functioning of the electric solenoid on the CSV and the injection pump.

Keep us up-to-date.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

wwheeler

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Re: Next to impossible hot starting
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2015, 20:10:42 »
I wouldn't think sooty plugs would be just from starting even if it was rich. The engines would quickly blow off the soot during normal driving as long as you are not running rich there as well.

If you think there is any chance it is excessively rich at hot start, you can easily test by removing the wire to the starting solenoid on the IP. That will lean the mixture from the normal richer setting when starting. If it is starting too rich during hot start, that will make a noticable change.
Wallace
Texas
'68 280SE W111 coupe
'60 220SE W128 coupe
'70 Plymouth Roadrunner 440+6

franjo_66

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Re: Next to impossible hot starting
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2015, 05:10:33 »
I had exactly the same symptoms on my 1965 230SL
Injection pump, injectors and CSV all done by Han at Pacific Fuel Injection

Cold starts were excellent, but hot starting problematic

Spark plugs in same state as yours
After all the checks we traced it back to a leaky CSV

Once disconnected no more hard starting when warm/hot and plugs back to normal

Good luck !
Franjo

1965 230SL Black/Auto/RHD
2005 Porsche Cayenne Turbo
1983 BMW 735i
1986 560 SEC
1991 500SL
1982 Holden Statesman DeVille

ja17

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Re: Next to impossible hot starting
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2015, 13:31:58 »
Good tip franjo_66.  How is your cold starting with the CSV disconnected?
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

tdpick

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Re: Next to impossible hot starting
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2015, 05:14:58 »
had same thing temp outside went up to 100 deg yesterday and all the sudden no start was back this time I went to the altitude compensator removed two thin washers didn't help added a copper indexing washer for spark plugs starts like a dream  I'm in cal at about sea level

ja17

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Re: Next to impossible hot starting
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2015, 03:27:42 »
Adding a washer to the baro. compensator will richen the mixture, causing it to start easier when warm.  However, most likely you are compensating for a lean running problem elsewhere. Hopefully your warm running mixture is not overly rich now.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

franjo_66

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Re: Next to impossible hot starting
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2015, 02:58:49 »
Hi Joe

Cold starts on my 230SL are fantastic. She cranks & fires immediately (with CSV disconnected)

Although given that I am located in a mild climate (Sydney, Australia) the CSV is not a critical factor !

Regards
Franjo
Franjo

1965 230SL Black/Auto/RHD
2005 Porsche Cayenne Turbo
1983 BMW 735i
1986 560 SEC
1991 500SL
1982 Holden Statesman DeVille

jpinet

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Re: Next to impossible hot starting
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2015, 04:47:44 »
Hello all,

with your advised input, I found that a wire under the rubber protector on my thermo time switch was cut.
It happened as we moved things around reinstalling the engine.
When the engine was warm and refused to start, I grounded the positive on that switch and vrooooom!
New soldered connections solved that problem.

Now, I find that when cold, it runs well from the start, but will suddenly cut off after a few minutes at idle, not like there's no fire, but as it's running short on gaz.

Something else to look into!

Thanks again!