convertible top install---

[rmmchl]

doesn't matter now. I would never pay $3000.00 to put a soft top on a pagoda w113------------I don't care what some members think it's worth. That is my opinion, and I'll stick to it. That guy named Braq,  or whoever designed this car, needs to pay everyone of us $3000.00 for them  screwing up the design, and making a system that "almost works"----the whole soft top lid, soft top compartment, soft top frame, and soft top, and window system,  heat control system and levers,  are designed poorly at best.  They are  beautiful cars, but if I knew what I know now, I would have never owned it. It has made my knuckles sore and hair gray.-  Dr Benz (Dan Caron) ,  has pulled me out of many weekends of dark depressions with his knowledge of these cars, and the problems I have encountered. I have never met him face to face , but I guarantee his knuckles are scarred and hair is probably gray also.

[badali]

My car came without a soft top and bought a frame and had it installed.  The adjustments take some time to get it straight.  Not sure exactly how long it took but it was much more than 10 minutes.  Getting it straight and lining it up with the windows takes some time.  I would recommend having it installed on your car to make sure everything lines up properly.  You could have some problems reinstalling it.  These cars were hand built and have some minor variation that cause big headaches.

[Garry]

rmmchl
Some may want to give you a reply e.g. it has to be put on and off a donor car to assist in the fitting, not just once on your car, but in a similar fashion to you not wanting tell us where you are other than in the USA, (like the board has asked of all members) they probably don't want to either. After all you may be snow bound in Alaska?  

You asked for comment ;

[rmmchl]

I'm in the usa---I'm just trying to find out the real deal. I don't trust anyone person on anything, until I check and verify, and check and verify again. They may very well be correct.... It just seems to me , it would'nt take 4 hours to bolt  my frame the donor car, before the new top installation began. This is why this format is great. We all help educate each other

[Garry]

rmmchl,

I think you missed what I was trying to say.
The Board of this Forum has asked each of us on a number of occasions to list ourselves by Country, eg. USA, by State, eg CA and if you wish by town eg LA.
That way someone on this forum may be happy to then suggest an named alternative to your un-named place that is 600 miles away from somewhere unknown in the USA to fit an un-named brand rag top on the car.

Garry

[rmmchl]

the place was way up north of me in wv

[hauser]

Given the numbers you stated you would be spending $1,350.00.  That seems like a bargain to me in any economy.  I spent considerably more that, in fact it was almost three times that much. 

[Garry]

But he doesn't want to pay for the labour cost of getting it on and off a donor car which is additional as he has been able to do it with his wife in 10 minutes even though it is all incredably cheap

I think the  saying "Emperor has no clothes" may apply

[rmmchl]

garry-I wonder is you even understand my question---------------------I am asking if it should take 4 extra hours to put my frame on a donor car. It's 4 bolts-It's not rocket science. I don't need a confortation. I am asking for civil answers. I don't know where you are from-maybe finances don't concern you.-----------------I'm glad I don't have guys like you working for me. I would probably spend a lot of time tring to get you to understand things. If you know for a fact that I'm wrong-then tell me. But don't get smart with your comments. I am not on here for that, and neither should you.

[mdsalemi]

GARRY is from Melbourne, Australia--just like his signature says.

RMMCHL--you say it doesn't matter where you are or who the service place is?  Nonsense.  Joe's Foreign Car Service in Arkansas (hypothetical) might have a very different labor rate than Fletcher-Jones in L.A.  My local place in Michigan is very different than Hatch & Sons.  Labor and experience is all over the place so location absolutely matters.

One of the benefits we have here is some experience.  I can tell you this with certainly--Bud's in Georgia, and SL Tech in Maine (Gernold) have extensive experience in fitting these.  Have you called them?  They are generally very nice and pleasant people serving owners like us.

You should not equate removal with replacement and refitment.  I understand from local police reports that it is taking less than 2 minutes to remove a catalytic converter; similar times to remove airbags, and integrated nav/radio systems from modern cars.  Perhaps absurd but you get the point: replacement of these items at ANY dealer will take significantly more time than that.

Remember it is a two person job, so 4 hours is actually 2 x 2 hours.  Setting up your car to protect its finish, getting all the parts together, and consistent checking along the way to ensure it is all done properly...4 hours might seem about right--at least a good guess covering potential pitfalls, of which there are always some even on the most mundane jobs.

But if that alarms you--don't even think of asking about how long to actually install the softtop on said frame--I was watching it done at PUB and it seemed to take all day!

[badali]

I think it will take less than 4 hours but it could take up to 2 hours for it to be lined up straight so you get a tight fit.  If the frame is not sitting correctly you will have wrinkles or tight areas to deal with.  I think it will be not as easy when you put it back on your car.

[dseretakis]

One reputable shop charges in the $4000 range to have a soft top fitted. I'm not answering your question directly but my point is that this seems to be a labor intensive job if it is to be done correctly.

[rmmchl]

you guys still aren't getting my question. I'm talkng about 4 extra hours to put my frame on a donor car-not using my car. I will stillhave to do the install and adj to my car when I get it back-------------------why would it take 4 hours extra to put a frame on a donor car-it is 4 bolts?

[dseretakis]

We understand your question and some answers have been given. Why don't you just do the whole thing yourself and be done with it?

[66andBlue]

Déjà vu all over again.

RMMCHL started a similar inquiry almost two years ago - and the top is still not installed! 
I hope the discussion does not deteriorate to the same level again:
http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=11367.msg76098

[mdsalemi]

Gee, was it too long THEN to install it?  It won't get any quicker to install...

[rmmchl]

66 and blue -I have been waiting for another repaint and to  freshen up some things on my 250sl for about 5 years now-I may have asked similair posts 2 years ago, and no I haven't yet put a new top on yet. My top that I have really looks good, but developed small holes from the hinges rubbing, which has been a lifelong problem of these cars. I may not get a new one at all now. It's not something that has to be done, but I am a stickler for perfection. Because of the cost I may wait another few years.  I stripped my car of everything for my repaint, which is now 27 years old. I just received my car back from the body shop, with my new seiken's base coat /clear coats and I have the spring months to put in all back together. I am replacing seat pads and carpet. I have to watch my budget . I have owned my car since 1986. It would be considered an excellent driver to you guys. To an oridinary person, it is a show car.  Sorry some you guys are mean spirited like that, when I was asking a serious question, even if it was a 2 year old question

[Garry]

rmmchl,

I think we understand your question, and as Michael said, location can have a lot to do with it.
If you lived in Charleston VA for instance a local person there may not have the knowledge for doing the soft top as, for instance, Bud's in Atlanta which is about 600 miles away but may be worth the effort of getting the car to them as they will fit it properly and it will come back fitted without you having to then readjust it to your car. You say you are a stickler for correctness, then the experts is maybe where you need to go as stickler perfection and low price in the commercial world are not very compatible to each other.

However what some are saying is that the total cost appears to be really cheap, and sure they may be quoting some high hours for getting it on a donor and then off again but you need to look at the total picture of what it is going to cost for the top and not get caught in the weeds trying to squeeze the last dollar out of the guy. You said you use him a lot, so you must have some trust in him.

I am not trying to be rude, I am suggesting that you have missed the point of some of the replies but you are not seeing it as all you are interested in is the 4 hours and not the total cost.

Additionally if we knew where you lived then we would not be recommending someone like Gernold for instance to get a second opinion as he is even further from the mythical Charleston VA and you have already indicated that you don't want to move the car 600 miles. But you don't want to hear that either as you said it is unimportant to you, but its not to others here.

Mate I'll let you in on a little secret, delaying a couple of more years is not going to make it get any cheaper.

Garry

[jameshoward]

My, my, you turn your back for a few days and there's a thread about soft tops that, given the heat generated (at the expense of light, it seems), must in part be responsible for bringing down President Mubarak.  Great thread, though. A blinding read.

Rmmchl (or however it's pronounced), I've put a new soft top on my car from scratch. Frankly, I cannot imagine anything more likely to result in sub-optimal end result than: taking a soft top off one car, shipping it to [insert country/state/province], having experts put the frame on a different car, cover it with a new soft top, removing it from that car, boxing it up, then shipping it [from Area 56/wherever] back, halfway across [insert country/state/province] to location 'X/Narnia/Atlantis' whereupon it's fitted to a different car by someone who has not fitted a soft top before.

Lightheartedness aside, this is a recipe for disappointment on an expensive scale.

A few observations from someone who does - now, with superb hindsight - know a bit about fitting soft tops. First, it's a painful, tiresome experience. In my view - but noting I'm in no way an expert - I can easily see how it would take 4 hours to set up the frame on a new car. (Trust me, taking it off provides no clues as to how long putting it on takes). It has to be shimmed, moved back and forth to get the elbows straight, to get it aligned properly with the front and back locks, etc. It could easily take 4 hours.

My biggest concern, though, is the fact that a new top will take a long time to have stretched sufficiently onto a frame such that when you take it off, it won't change the geometry of the frame. (I would have thought). My top is tight as a drum when up. If I undid the frame, it would move and would take ages to get it aligned again. If I moved the frame having just put the top on, say, to ship it from here to there, I think it would present a big challenge when the time came to refit it.

In short, to answer your questions: YES - IT COULD EASILY TAKE 4 HOURS TO PUT YOUR TOP ON A DIFFERENT CAR. PROPERLY.

But I'd really advise you to think again about doing this. I fear the end result will drive you mad. Even if this thread doesn't.

(But I'll keep watching it, because I've had a crap week and it's cheered me up a little!)

[mdsalemi]

I do not believe anybody here is mean spirited.  We all share the same love for the cars and the desire to help.

RMMCHL, rather than looking for the truth, you seem to be looking for validation that your assumption that 4 hours for an install  is too long.  When the answers are coming back not to your satisfaction, you deem us to be mean spirited.

Further, you quest for anonymity may go with the flow of the internet but doesn't precisely fit with the camaraderie that many of us develop here.  We don't know who you are or where you are.  How the heck can we help?  Honestly.

But now you have several answers.  They don't mesh with your assumption.  Now the truth is exposed: it could very well take 4 hours or longer to properly do what you want to do.  So, accept it.  You will not find different answers by asking the question again, or waiting longer, or finding someone else to do it.

If you don't like James Howard's "First Person" experience, pick up the telephone and call some of the experts noted here with experience.  Call Michael at Black Forest.  Call Gernold at SL Tech, and Call Dave at Bud's.  Put all their answers together and there you have it.  That is not mean spirited in any way--it is a logical recommendation to get an answer.

[glenn]

My Sept '09 comment still applies---  PPP Persnickety Pagoda Persiflage.....

Also, Try taking your Thunderbird/Saab/Chevy etc to 'somebody' for a new top--and you think Pagodas are expensive?

At least with Gernold you get it right.

The 'Forum' has spent enough man-hours on this to have done the job.  Let's see--- 100 hours at, say $65 per = $6500.  Who gets the bill?? rrm---

[douglas dees]

One reputable shop charges in the $4000 range to have a soft top fitted. I'm not answering your question directly but my point is that this seems to be a labor intensive job if it is to be done correctly.

My bill was $1500 to remove the old soft top. clean off all the old yellow glue, line it up properly etc. The top was extra and came from GAHH. Removing the old glue was a job in inself.
It was a beautiful job with a lot of fitting as the frame was a bit twisted. It was done in Toronto Canada by Queensway Auto Trim. Every job is different and so the price. Nothing on these cars are simple or cheap given the age and using a labour book of hours does not work.

Doug Dees
Toronto

[Benz Dr.]

There are a lot of people around the site who don't have where they live in their profile. Is that a crime? Would you like me to point out a few?

   If someone doesn't want to put that info on the site I'd guess that's up to them, right? 

[Garry]

You are absolutely right Dan, no crime to not put your town or state for that matter, but then they can't get upset when no one can give a reasonable answer on where to go to get a second opinion, offer help etc etc.

Paradoxically, if they are that paranoid to not even give their State for fear of theft or such like , then they probably should not be on the net at all as by a few key strokes, it normally becomes pretty simple for the wrong people to locate them, but as you say that's their call and its up to them.

[Cees Klumper]

Having just read through the whole thread, I'm kind of with RMMCHL on the tone of our responses, could have been a bit more positive here and there, and more about just answering his question rather than offering other comments, however relevant otherwise.

Anyhow, I do think it's on the high side to quote 4 hours to bolt the frame onto the donor car. But what concerns me a lot more than this quote being on the high side, given the clear common opinion about fitting a new soft top onto a donor car being a bad idea to start with, I'm more troubled about the vendor not commenting on this; in other words, I would have expected the vendor to have said "We advise against going this route, since in our experience installing a top using any but the car itself can only result in a sub-optimal end result - is there any way you can bring the car up here in the near future so we can do it right?".

Hey Dan, good to see you posting again!!

[Benz Dr.]

Reports of my demise are grossly exaggerated.

[Shvegel]

I guess in the spirit of not being negative and sheading light and not heat I think that RMMCHL should call Gernold(My assumption) or whomever and ask what is involved in fitting the top to the car.  Although it may be only 4 bolts to REMOVE the top from your car straightening the frame, adjusting the top Checking/replacing the webbing and cleaning off the old glue etc may be involved here. Also keep in mind you mentioned that he has a body that he fits the top to as well. Keep in mind that the "Fixture" is probably indoors taking up square footage, heat and light while it is sitting there waiting for the next top. When I worked in the body work business years ago I started looking at the business side of things and in a shop with 6 stalls if you tie up one of them it needs to pay for 1/6 of the rent, heat, light etc or it goes outside. I talked more than one owner into taking the "someday project" and parking it out back.

Also when you are having work done at the highest level keep in mind that you are also paying someone to not work. When things are going badly or just not making sense you are paying them to walk away and take a breath, drink a cup of coffee or just sit until you can go back to working and not push it until you have messed it up.

In the yachting industry where I work now I have been lucky enough to work with some of the finest craftsman on the planet who work at levels far above what I can achieve(and I am good with my hands) and charge unimaginable sums for their work(50KUSD for a dining room table top). By and large what they possess that I don't is patience.

I think that it might be best to look at this is that it costs X to do your top and not break it down by line item.

[thelews]

At least with Gernold you get it right.

Which top got it right?

[badali]

Here is mine.  GAHH

[seattle_Jerry]

As someone that does estimates for a living (in a different industry), I can tell you he is hedging his bet. It was mentioned that you have used him before, so he knows you want top quality at bargain prices and are particular about the final result. He has likely tacked on extra hours knowing that you expect things to be perfect.

I'm actually shocked you are getting a low price. He must really need the work. We do high quality work at my company but expect to get paid what we are worth. You can't pay for a "hyundai" and expect a "mercedes". We are sometimes tricked the first time around, but a repeat picky customer is always charged accordingly the next time.

I haven't done an SL top yet but my MGB took two people all day. I also strongly agree about needing to let it stay stretched.

[Desertpagoda]

Has anyone here actually paid as much as $3000 to $4000 for a 113 soft top installed? If so, Holy Cow!! If theres no frame problem, at $1500, subletting to my man Marvin who has installed DOZENS, beautifully, I make $650... and that is a top from GAHH with the right lining and new header and rear bow to soft top comp cover seals! It takes 4-5 hours...period! Keith 

[69280sl]

I haven't paid $3000 for a new top, but the previous owner did. The paperwork for a new top was about the only thing I got in the way of documents. He paid Mercedes of Naples Fla., about $3000 (they did give him a complimentary carwash). They probably subcontracted the installation, but it is a Mercedes top with a star logo on the window, the correct liner, etc etc.  I have the feeling he let the dealer do everything and paid accordingly, I just wish he had kept all the repair orders.

Gus

[Benz Dr.]

The MB top will be a lot more. Maybe in the 2K range?
 4 - 5 hours seems rather quick but some people work ( too ) quickly. It took us that long after the old top was removed with the header recovered, and my top guy is an expert, but everyone has a certain pace.