Marque Valuation

[mdsalemi]

Gents,

There has of course been some discussion on the values of our 113's and some of the parts on them.  We often ponder whether or not what we do to our cars will return anything on resale.  Well, last week, this absolutely pristine 1957 Chevrolet came into my car wash.  It had the look of just being finished from a restoration--which it was.  The dust of a body shop was still on it.  It was two-tone white upper and red lower.  Totally rebuilt everything.  All the stainless steel trim on it was new.  The "Mae West" style massive bumpers all rechromed.  Flawless body and paint work.  Inside, just perfect.  Underside, identical.  They guy said the car was completely done, but it had been a basket case.  Lots of new sheet metal.  I don't know much about originality on Chevy's, but it sure looked darn near perfect.  It sounded "hyped" meaning it had a very powerful engine in it, not an uncommon thing around here.  The owner said he had just finished it (he does these as a hobby) and had sold it; he was cleaning it up for the new owner prior to delivery.  I asked him what this car was worth.

He said he sold it for $23,000.

We may not get a 100% return on OUR restoration and repair dollars, but we sure do better then a Chevrolet!    

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[Bob G]

Thank fully year one and other companies have made it less of a strain on your wallet to restore a classic Cheverolet and a Z28. One of our passed members who sold his 280SL because he was too tall for it was into musule cars he commented to me that he could buy a front bumper for his Camero RS
For about under $100.00.
Look at the trade magazines for Ford you can build a 1965 GT Mustang for under $20,000 and customize it with new fuel injection and disc brakes and a t-5 transmission or a termac 6 speed.
What companies do we know out there who are remaufacturing parts that thoses prices for our Mercedes-Benz SLs that really fit. It darm takes the sallery of a doctor to afford the sheet metal and chrome.
Still when all is said and done no one wants to pay top dollar for the car. I donot think these cars have reached their peak yet, I give it another ten years before the classic center starts to treat them like the 300SL.
Bob Geco

[A Dalton]

Don't sell the Chevies short ..
 That was more likely a 210 model, as a  Show '57 Bel-Air Convert w/V8- PowerPack can bring $50 K. np problem..
 Even more with FI...
 But . our 113s are Finally coming into there own.. I went through the same stagnation for years with my 121...

[hauser]

I'm no expert on American cars.  Aside from the occasional rental car I have only had two cars that I drove that belonged to my father.  A 1964 Chevy Bel Aire and a 1979 Buick Skylark each was a P.O.S.  Funny thing about these cars is that I didn't like them and was never worried where I parked.  It always seems that the more you care about a car the more prone it is to have something happen to it.

The $23,000.00 Corvette seems like a real bargain to me. Not being up on US car values I did a little searching and found a car similar to the one mentioned for an advertised high of $90,000.00 in Hemmings.  The lowest price I was able to find for a rolling restoration project for $11,000.00 currently on ebay.  Could it be possible that the car Mike spotted the owner profited $23,000.00?  To me the price seems very low when compared to the other cars.

Mike, not to put down your car was business but I would never take a  collector car to a car wash unless it was an emergeny.  If I were away from home and something had spilled or some other foreign matter had to be cleaned up right away.  On my Pagoda it's strickly hand washing and even more so if my car had a fresh restoration such as the Corvette we've discussed.

1969 280sl 5 spd        1999 ML320          Gainesville,Fl.

[Raymond]

Mr. Salemi didn't say it was a Corvette.  A clean '57 'vette would bring a lot more than a Bel-Air which this car was. (Mae West bumpers)  A Bel-Air two door coupe with an original V-8 would bring more than a 4-door sedan with a 6.  

The thing is that our '63 to '71 cars are much more rare than '57 Bel-airs or '67 to '69 Camaros.  There are thousands more poeple who are willing to put sweat equity into Chevy's because that's what was around their neighborhoods when they were young.  And their are tens of thousands of engines and transmissions that will bolt up to these cars.  Chevy is still making the same basic V-8 that first appeared in a Bel-air in 1955.  There are millions of them in the US.  How many junk yards are there where you can find parts that will fit in our cars?  

When it comes to comparing prices, we can compare apples to apples but remember that our car is a peach!

Ray
'68 280SL 4-spd Coupe

[Bob G]

I forgot about the fuel injection Belair and impala that leed up to the fuel injection in the corvett in 1956. Those were much more to restore and not as bullet proof as the fuel injection system and engine that came from the old 300SC that went into the 300SL.
It still interesting to look at old corvettes from the 1960s, I know a grand sport goes for $90,000 I cannot figure out why for that price I rather have my SL and money in my pocket.
P.S>. Michael's self serve car wash is high tech and thats why it attracts nice cars.
Bob Geco

[Ed Cave]

It is amazing to me the prices American muscle cars are bringing these days. My jaw dropped several times at the Barrett Jackson auction earlier this year as I watched literally dozens bring upwards of 100k.

Here is a great example. A 1970 Plymouth Barracuda on ebay with 51 bids and currently at $201,000 and it hasn't even met the reserve yet! I have no interest in these cars personally but wish I had a garage full to put on the block. I can't imagine their value will continue to increase above the values we see out there today.

And none touch the Pagoda when it comes to elegance.

SORRY, EBAY LINK NO LONGER VALID

Ed Cave
Atlanta, GA

1964 356C
1971 280SL

[mdsalemi]

Gents,

Some things to add here...

First it wasn't a Corvette, it was a plain 1957 two-tone Chevrolet.  The reason I made a post about it was it sounded like the guy put as much effort (time) and as many parts into that restoration as I did in mine.  His result netted him $23,000 which was a good deal, but not completely outrageously low.  The point I am making is that your restoration dollars in the long run will net you a bit more on a 113 then on a Chevy.  If I had a spare $23,000 or more I'd have topped that offer in a heartbeat, it was so beautiful.  If it had been a convertible it would obviously have fetched a bit more.  I am not hazarding a guess but I think my car might be worth a bit more then $23K.

I live in muscle car country gents, and there is more American Iron of the '60's and earlier here then anywhere including California.  The cars were engineered here; built here and there are tons of them tucked in every garage.  Some American muscle cars are very rare indeed; I don't know the specifics of that 'Cuda but I do know some muscles were very very low production and can fetch quite a bit.

I'd take anything on eBay with a grain of salt; a lot of those really screaming deals don't consummate.

As for my car wash, you simply have to know what you are doing.  Mine is a self serve car wash with a touchless automatic, and I've had brand new S500's in there, as well as restored cars from the '40s--and of course everything in between.  I bring my 113 down there regularly in season, and use my reverse-osmosis "spot free" water to mix my Zymol soap and do a complete wash with the top down (by hand of course)all the time.  I get collector cars in all the time as well--more in summer of course.  In the days before the Woodward Dream Cruise (a local cruise that attracts over 10,000 collector cars every year, held in August), you might have thought my car wash was set in 1965, there were that many classics around.  What Hauser might be cautioning us about is what is called a "tunnel" wash where your car is dragged through, and brushes scratch the living heck out of your car.  I don't have a tunnel and my automatic is touchless.  I took my 113 to a self serve across from Weidner Motors in Mansfield on the day before the concours at Starfest as well.  I know exactly what I'm doing in a car wash and I have no fears.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[JamesL]

To echo what Bob Geco has said below, there's an article in this months Mercedes Enthusiast magazine here in the UK. It's cheap soft-top season and so it's all about picking up a bargain convertible

They have the 198, W128 Ponton Cab, W111/112, 113, 124, 208 (CLK), R107, R129, R170 (SLK).

Not read the whole thing yet but they rate "investment potential"

W124 - "will dip before they rise"
W111/112 - "could be room for growth"
W198 - "yes but linked to state of market"

the rest are all "none" or something like that.

Oh, except the 113

"Reckoned in the trade to be cheap; prices can only go up"

[France]

Hi guys (still no ladies out there?? man, I'm feeling lonely...),

Living in Brussels, Alsace, and Sarasota, and having an ever-changing stable of oldies, we keep a close eye on Pagoda prices everywhere.  Some day we hope to retire and trade exotic oldies, maybe in Sarasota where there is a huge market.  

We have noticed particularly in the past two years a large increase in UK prices, particularly in the middle categories. So this comment on the relative cheapness of the 113 is especially relevant.  If I were to put a 113 in one of my Europe garages, it would definitely be a US car shipped over... even with customs.

By the way, be careful.  We just bought an XJS (well, none of you stopped me!) and the former owner had ordered shocks from the US.  They cost $250, but German customs charged him a further $500 (!!!)

US prices will rise too, but we are a sophisticated and rather small group of buyers, and with Pagodas thin on the ground, it's difficult to recruit new lovers of the model.  As several of you intimated, people tend to restore what was nostalgic to them.  I really don't care what it rises to, because I'M NEVER SELLING HER.



Trice
1968 280SL US, signal red/bl leather, auto, kinder

[Malc]

Woo Hoo
With those prices my rather sad daily driving Saab 900 200,000 miles, perfect dents, rusty bonnet and rattling timing chain is going to be worth a fortune some day! [:p]

Malc

[Douglas]

Trice,

Just curious. Why do you say you would prefer to ship over a US-spec Pagoda to Europe? Are they a better value in the States right now?

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220

[JamesL]

Douglas

They're a snip!

I sort of operate in 2 currencies as the wife is Texan

When we moved to the UK (from Singapore), £1 would buy about $1.45 and it stayed around there for years. Today, it's $1.88 - effetively, anything I buy in $ (when I earn in £) is 30% cheaper. (Can't wait to hit the shops on my next visit!)

The € has moved the same way. I am just peed off that you lot all drive on the wrong side of the road as I cannot buy a nice little runabout - not an issue in the rest of Europe

Ignorng market forces etc in the US on the price of the cars, the $ is really helping "US exports" right now - and that may include old cars!

[France]

Doug,

When you compare the prices in the US: what I paid for the Little Red Truck ($16K, real value I think was $25K) to the prices for a similar car in the UK and Germany ($30K and up), it starts to look pretty good.  Especially when you import a so-so auto (which you know needs new paint etc.), so you don't worry so much about the car except for dings (a disaster!).

But don't forget the mildew!! My Chinese antiques were almost ruined in a transAtlantic container for a month coming from CA to France.  You don't worry so much in the car instance about the trans-Atlantic transport because you still can come out ahead if you have planned some stragegic rehab. Still, we have shipped cars trans Atlantic in both directions with minor troubles.

You can do a lot with $10K profit, especially with the 30% you are making on the $/Euro!  As Tosh said, you have to consider the exchange rate.

I still stick with what I said in another post: of all the cars I have had, the 280 is one I will never sell.  BMWs, GT40s, XJSs can come and go, but this one's here to stay.


Trice
1968 280SL US, signal red/bl leather, auto, kinder

[andy]

doug
i imported my sl in january,the exchange rate then was 1.80 dollars to the pound,the car i got was signal red with palamino int. 56000 miles,all records,tools,no rust or accidents.i paid 27000 dollars,with shipping and registration i had the car on the road for less than 16.000 pounds.there is nothing like this car in england for less than 30.000 pounds, and it looks the rate is going to reach 2 dollars to the pound,and that makes importing even better.if the wife would let me i get another one tomorrow,i wear the pants in this house,she justs tells me  what ones to put on.
andy.
spain.

[Douglas]

Wow. Sounds like a powerful argument for "repatriating" a Pagoda these days. Come to think of it, I suppose a number of car dealers are built on this model in, for example, the Netherlands.



Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220

[German Dude]

Exactly right.
I think it is because
a) basically, all cars in Holland are imports.They have no car industry now that DAF is gone and

b) the Dutch tax system clearly favors old cars. I have not quite figured out the system but one tax is based on the weight of the car, another one on the book value. With cars older than 25 years (maybe 20, I am not sure), things change dramatically, but I think Cees would know best about this.

With the Euro up and climbing, I have been starting to check the online trader again. However, I would clearly favor to bring a Euro-spec Pagoda back.

Juergen
64 230SL #2933, 4sp, signal red, white hard top
93 Citroen XM station wagon