Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => W11x chassis cars => Topic started by: perry113 on December 26, 2011, 23:59:46
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Does any one know the production numbers for low nose 6 cylinder coupes and Cabriolets. These cars sesentually are only indistinguishable from a 3.5 minus the 3.5 badge. I saw this low 6 on ebay and started thinking about it. see:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mercedes-Benz-200-Series-1970-Mercedes-Benz-280-se-LOW-GRILL-COUP-/260921660147?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item3cc02492f3
The seller claim "around 440 units .produced in 1969 and 1970 only" This is a rare car.
Are the Mercedes production records on hand and out there somewhere in our forum? Would the classic center release this information.
You can find overall production numbers on W111 coupes and cabriolets on Silver Star's website but it does not carve out low nose cars.
see
http://www.silverstarrestorations.com/111SE.htm
Production Numbers of the 280SE from 1968 to 1971
The chassis prefix for 280SE Coupes is 111 024 The engine prefix is 130 980/984
The chassis prefix to 280 SE Cabriolets is 111 025 The engine prefix is 130 980/984
Coupes 3797 units
Cabriolets 1390
Total: 5187 units
I would like to start researching this information. It would be neat to find out how many were USA cars (which I believe specically had transistorized coil ignition systems) versus european cars.
I have seen a few 69 high cars and they set up so much differently the low nose set up. I found this out when saving my 280SE 3.5 living doner car now technically built from a 1970 low nose cabriolet 6.
Cheers.
Peter
see picture link of project W111 280SE 3.5 living doner car.
https://picasaweb.google.com/111355593055710048515/1970280SECoupe#
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I am still fishing for information and feedback from the forum. Would anyone like to comment?
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According to the book by Tim Slade (Original Mercedes Benz Coupes, Cabriolets and V-8 Sedans 1960 - 1972, ISBN - 0-7603-1952-9) The low grill cars began production in November of 1969 through to the end of the 111's in May 1971. The book lists these as all being 3.5 V-8's. (M-116 engine) According to the table in the back of the book, 3270 units were produced with 1232 cabriolets.
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Thanks for your reply. Your response seems to reflect the V8 cars only which were all low nose, however, they also used the V8 low nose bodies and fit them with 2.8 six cylinder powerplants. I am led to believe that the low nose 6 cylinder cars, both cabriolet and coupes might have been made by the handful.
According to Silver Star's website there were a total of 4502 3.5 V8's, 3270 of them being coupes and the remaining 1232 of them being cabriolets.
280SE cars which would encompass the entire run of high and low nose 6 being 5187. 3997 of these cars were coupes and the remaining 1390 of them being cabriolets. There data however does not carve out how many of each were high and low nose configurations.
My friend recently bought a 69 high nose coupe that is an amazing original survivor. It however is quite different under the hood than my 70 low nose. The fuse panel as an example is located under the bonnet whereas my car is under the dash much like a 3.5.
Are there any forum members out there who own low nose 6's?
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As a long time fan of the W111 low grill coupes I find it very disappointing that many of them have been sacrificed for cabrio parts. These beautiful coupes have also had their roofs decapitated to convert them into cabrios.
When searching for a W111 it is easier to find a cabrio than a coupe.
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I think there were about 3,500 3.5 coupes and cabs built, all would have the low nose. I've owned a 3.5 coupe for about 15 years but have never found the time to restore it. I managed to find NOS front fenders for it which are probably a small fortune today.
The 3.5 coupe is what I'd call a modern yet old car.
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I think Waqas has a 6 cylinder 2.8 Coupe that he had a PUB?
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John Olson (SL Market Letter) estimates 1600 6 cylinder coupes built between 68-72.
The low grille began production in mid '69 so an estimate would be around 1,000 low grille 6 cylinder coupes?
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I went back and re-read the section of Slade's book regarding the low nose cars more carefully, and it does indicate that the 6 cylinder was put in the low nose cars at the same time. It indicates the cars are indistinguishable from the outside save for the 3.5 on the tail.
Thanks for clarifying.
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There are significant panel differences between the low and high noses. I recently looked into converting a high nose to a low nose but there was just too much work to make it worthwhile.
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There are significant panel differences between the low and high noses. I recently looked into converting a high nose to a low nose but there was just too much work to make it worthwhile.
There alot of differences. As far as sheetmetal goes I think the inner aprons are different which would make it really hard to do. Do you know if the doors and rear fenders are different?
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AFAIK:
Doors are the same but rear fenders are different due to some additional stiffeners.
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AFAIK:
Doors are the same but rear fenders are different due to some additional stiffeners.
The changed rear fenders where introduced on later high-grille cars, so it is not a change that can be used to distinguish between low and high grille cars.
Hans
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I have both the low grill and high grill. They are all beautiful cars and should be left original. I would never convert a high grill to a low grill. A lot of people think the 3.5 is the best/ to me the 6 cy is also an amazing car. I can drive both of them on the FWY over 100mph with no problem.
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I looked at my statistics when you first posted the question. It is indeed difficult to segregate between the high and low grill 6 cylinder by serial numbers and data available! I didn't have any success....sorry.
It's interesting though...I have a 3.5 cabrio and sometimes wish it was a high grill, as I think it looks more stately! I guess the grass is always greener on the other side!
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Catching up on unread threads, and I just saw this.
My w111 is a 250SE/C (so, high grille). When I was searching for a car (circa 2006), I came across a 1970 low-grille 2.8 with a five speed (not ZF). I still wonder if I should have bought it. It was a bit more rusty than I was comfortable with.
I remember searching for production data on the ZF versus MB 5-speed, but found conflicting numbers from various sources. Never went back after all was said and done to check the numbers, so I too would be very curious to know more about the production data.
I'm very happy with my coupe, the high-grille, four-on-floor, and sunroof. The 250 motor is as peppy as ever (with a fresh transmission rebuild and new clutch!). I frequently take it on road-trips and average 80 mph, and it always feels very responsive. These cars are very under-valued, and the 3.5 cars are (IMHO) over-valued. Of course, I'm biased ;-)
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The coupes in general, even 3.5's seem to be undervalued. These cars are a BUY :). I am totally in love with the my low nose 6 coupe. It is a spectular car to drive and to just look at.
I can't wait for the roads to clear up so I can go for a ride.
Peter
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I just found this website from the posting on the the fintail coupe. There is some great information to be found here. see:
http://www.heckflosse.nl/prodccv.htm
This may shed some additional light on production numbers. According to the site it shows on 613 280SE coupes and convertibles built in 1970 and only 68 in 1971. It differentiates 3.5 cars from these numbers. It also shows 2501 280se coupes and convertibles built in 1969. There would be some cars in this timeframe that were low nose cars but I would guess there was only a hand full.
It is interesting to also see they list only 176 3.5 coupes and convetibles made in 1969.
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I am on the fence when it comes to low versus high grille. I love my high grille but also like the more modern look of the low grille. There is one thing I would do differently if I bought a coupe today, and that is to get a 250 SE. I love that wood binnacle and all of the interior chrome trim that mine doesn't have. I believe the 250 also doesn't have the horrible US side markers.
I am slowly changing some of the items to the earlier stuff like the heater levers and the chrome rearview mirror. Man that looks good!
I would be really surprised if the coupe values don't rise significantly by the next decade. Get 'em while you can.
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Wallace,
I hate the side markers as well. Fortunately, my W111 is a Euro version. Unfortunately, my 250SL is a 1968 USA version with side marker lights!!! While I love my 250SL...the engine is no comparison to the 3.5 when it comes to performance...but that's just my humble opinion!
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Whenever I get around to painting my W111, I am seriously considering plugging up the side marker holes. Whenever I see a sideshot profile, the markers distract from the wonderful curves of the sheetmetal. Without the markers, the car is transformed my opinion.
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Actually I expect there are less 280's with the high grill than with the low, considering the 280's arrived in Feb '68 and ran to Nov '69 whilst the high grille went from Nov '69 to the end of production in '72.
I do think the early cars have the more elegant interior and look more stately but the low grille cars manage to look so much more modern and sleek with just that little tweek. The light ivory interior on a 3.5 with macassar wood is just stunning IMO !
I sold my 280SE high grille a few months back and miss it terribly, but needs must and all that. I will definitely buy another without a shadow of a doubt.
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I have to say that I agree with the comments regarding the US style side markers and I had my 1970 280SL fenders and headlamp buckets welded and metal finished to remove all evidence of them. If I ever sell the car I have a new set of markers if the new owners feels differently but the clean look with the addition of the European headlamps are stunning.
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Hello, I have a book called "Die S-klasse von Mercedes Benz" writed by Heribert Hofner and he writes in his book that of the total of 5187 280 SE Cp/Conv. (3.797 Coupé's, 1.390 Convertibles) about 2/5th are with the lownose.
Maybe this will help.