Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Body, interior, paint, chrome, and cosmetic items => Topic started by: jedwards on February 04, 2014, 05:41:43
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I am nearing the completion of the restoration of the hard-top for my early 250SL and must consider the best approach to the final fit adjustments of the side window weather seals and channels.
When I restored the hardtop my W107 /450SL some years ago, the recommended method on the W107 forum was to fit the hardtop to the car and then fine tune the window channels by adjusting the caulking and final position so that each channel was perfectly parrallel with the widow’s top and trailing edges. By adjusting in-situ and directly in relation to the window glass, perfect fit could be achieved.
However all the forum chats, restoration articles and websites about the hardtop for our W113, all show the hardtop fully complete, including the window channels and seals in place, prior to fitting to the car.
This seems illogical compared with the W107 method but as I am yet to do this on the W113 hardtop, I wondered if anyone had any thoughts or comments on the merits or otherwise of the two approaches.
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In the case of my restorer he advised exactly this: fitting the HT prior to affixing the seals. Apparently, the other method is always leaving some misses.
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Hello,
AFAIK the only "adjustments" that can be made to the hardtop are the optional chrome trim shims that can be added to the C-pillar .
After putting the finished hardtop on the car, the windows will need to be adjusted to fit the hardtop.
Finally adjusting the softtop (if there is one) to the windows.
Hans
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Hans is spot on. Its a pain but the windows need to be adjusted from inside the doors for the best fit possible to the hardtop. Also, make sure you have the single-piece window rubber that goes up the side and follows the top as opposed to two cut pieces.
Kevin
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Just completed my drivers’ door, passenger door starts tomorrow. The door closes beautifully. The window glides lightly and smoothly –finally after 30 years.
It is a meticulous time consuming process of mechanical ingenuity. I did a half A__ job 30 years ago and always regretted it. I just didn’t have time to ponder the interferences and gas to figure out what to the factory guy would have done.
Both my doors had been reattached my idiots before I got the car, so when I got into them there was nothing where it should be. I had no sure reference but the windshield pillar.
1st there is a pretty good process laid out in the manual under Window with good pics. I used Gorilla glue (urethane) this time, I think it sticks better to glass than epoxy. The trick is to leave the guide clamping screws very loose until the very end, AND then when you are doing the final glide clamp screw tightening, carefully press the window back and forth, watching the plastic guides, while removing the play with the clamp crews, one clamp at a time. There should be no drag caused when you snugging up the screws. The window should go up and down as easily as before you tightened them.
There is so much to tell you, I think its best just to say nothing should be tight at the start. Pull the guides out, inspect, smooth out bumps & incorrect curves, anything that would misdirect or effect the plastic guides. Put them in loose at top and bot. Go for the pillar guide first: the window must come into the rubber seal just kissing the new pillar rubber/cloth surface just kissing the surface and continuing up the surface like its in love with it. Forget all the stuff about silicone grease if too tight -never go tight! You have to shim the guide, centered at the door opening, so the glass does exactly what it should. I had to cut custom shims from alu sheet to space the guide rail exactly where the glass just kisses the seal surface. It took a while. I had to use a longer bolt and then use washers to avoid interference as the clamp comes up with the closing window, giving the bolts threads to the back surface, no farther.
Next at the bottom of the guide, adjust the in/out angle of the glass so the glass again just touches at the start of the inside of the rubber and all the way up. It fits the curve, so just roll the window up and adj at the top. Height is in the clamping at the window bottom, just ensure for now, you can get the glass high enough. The height limited is adjusted lastly by the green rubber stopper tab that hits the inside doorframe one screw back on the clamp. (The rear stop is a dual stop both up for the rear of the glass and down again to the doorframe with the rubber ended #10 bolt std stopping thing.) Mercedes doesn’t put in extra stuff!
Once you get the front edge spaced and angled near perfect, adj the rear guide bottom to hold the glass forward (window down) against front rail with maybe 2mm slop fore and aft. Remember no tight. Guess at the angle then go up to the top of the rear guide and again cut shims so the glass comes out just kissing the rear rubber seal in the back and keeping the front edge kissing the front seal at the top. Use the angle adjust to kiss both surfaces all the way up. The opening perfectly fits the glass angles. You can shim the rubber holders in the soft-top frame to perfectly fit the glass. I mashed my seals up the holder grooves because they will then expand a little. I cut it too long on purpose to be trimmed later. I even bought the hardtop seals to use on the soft-top and put them in before cutting the corner and split, and left the front top rubber square until all was nice before cutting the front angle with a brand new sharp blade. It took me one weekend to get everything apart clean and prep the guides, glue the clamps on the glass, clean everything and three days to put it all back. I drove it for a few days before putting the panel back on to make final adjustments. My door was replaced once and I found the guy had mounted the door then realized he needed to drill holes for the rubber clamps. I had to redrill holes to put the front rubber in the right place.
So many little things to play with clean, and oil like the lock mech and crank mech, I have speakers in my doors and they needed new surrounds. I had a broken plastic guide jaw on a Sunday , made a plastic replacement that works so well I'll leave it.
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Gary,
This is a great write up. I, too, have performed the 50% solution and regret it also.
Pictures paint a 1000 words; do you have any? I think it would really add to the write up.
JH
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Adjusting the windows for correct closing is indeed a time-consuming job that requires great attention to detail. However, the time needed to do it will be double IF YOU DON'T MAKE SURE THAT YOU HAVE CHECKED AND ADJUSTED THE DOOR FOR CORRECT CLOSING FIRST!
I see so many doors that have dropped or not been hung properly after "resto" and it will be futile to try to adjust the glass in this case.
The doors need to be hung so that the sewage lines line up with the adjacent panels, that the gaps are even front and rear and so that the surfaces are flush when closed.
When adjusting doors always start with the hinges and then do the striker .
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Auh! ths glorious thunck of a W113 door closing perfectly!. Well, as close as "I" can get it. The weekend wasn't enough time. End of Sat after hours of shimming and back and forth, was left with a rough chaffing sound, from some hidden unfindable place. After mandantory wifey prepared dinner, found what the big spring is for and a rusted back side of the trtack for the other plastic guide. Much stoirage time had scarred the bare metal track, fixed by a large flat fine file, new silicone grease and nearly severed fingers.... Sunday brought renewed vigor and a window pretty close and quietly moving as it should. By te end of day, the window closed exceptionally well with the glorious thunk of yeater year. I drove 200 miles with many unnecessary gas stops just to thunk the doors with an audience ::) Today is front end alignement day, so the panel is back on, but no chrome, I couldn't risk too many hours out in the garage, when my wife wants to tell me all that happened at home that day.
Off topic: I took it to a regional tire store for alignment. The KID wouldn't tough the spring cams ands lock bolts to do the camber because his computer didn't tell him to. $112 later I came back with the bbb and the shop manager suggsted I go elsewhere with a full refund. Elsewhere didn't have the toe bar/spring, but he was Perian (Iranian American's perfer to be addressed as Persian) and he knew a fellow Persion who had used nice Mercedes for sale in from of his 'old' shop in Auburn CA. Elsewhere told me this guy Ray at Meritage was German trained with >20 years working on MBs. I called Ray and to my test, he knew what a W113 was!! He has a brand new shop with 8 stalls and a new alighment machine with W113 software, but the first appt would be in four days, today. I stopped by his new shop and was pleasantly surprised! It looks like a small MB Dealer shop with nice new c's and s's in his stalls. Eurika? I'll keep you posted :-\ for the few W113's that are close by Auburn.
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Gary...ahem...any pics of the work you did??
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Gary,
I got tired of trying to find someone to do a front end alignment correctly ans was also afriad they would find some additional issues that would prevent them from doing it. So, I got a tool to do the castor, camber and toe adjustments. Was glad I did because I found some additional issues while doing the adjustments. First, one of the adjusters on the top of a king pin needed to be replaced. I also needed to remove the top inner pivot pin to relocate the two shims that go with the attaching bolts. The way they were placed between the bolt head and the pin would not allow for the proper camber setting. The BBB states that these shims may need to
go in either location depending upon the car. I would hate to think what a shop unfamiliar with this would have recommended had they run into this issue.
George
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Sorry James, most of what I've done are already pictured in this manual and very well in the commercial repair book. They just don't adress how much care needs to go into the front seal adjustment and how you get the glass top edge square, and haw snug the gripper screws should be adjusted to. Its like talking in genearal about re-ringing and honing our blocks: the books don't warn you how tight the tolerances are. I will start taking pics as I do the final seal trimming and fitting. I just discovered I have no rear soft top seal! Hope we have apicture of that somewhere.
George, What is the devise you bought? source, number, price? I had a cheap one from JC Whitney and could never figureout how to calibrate or get it to repeat. Would love to find out there is an alternative.
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I had a chance yesterday to see a Pagoda being restored in a quality shop. We came came to speak of the doors, the closing mechanisim behind the cover panels. The Dealership Owner/Technicians/Mechanics pointed out that the bushings for the linkage bars that tun in the horizontal direction are very importand and that the rod must slide smoothly thru the bushings. We could see that the entire mechanism must have been taken apart and the horizontal rods polished so that they slide smoothly thru the small bushings. It was also mentioned that most of the bushings had to be replaced.
I thought I mention this here since you Gentleman are discussing doors :) Wish I had my camera, I left it in the car. I'm a firm believer in one photo equals a 1000 words (I hope I made myself clear in what I wanted to point out) :)
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Rolf, you are correct in that the rods have to be gliding smooth in the rubber bushings.
The bushings are two parts, the soft black rubber and the hard short tube that is inside.
Usually for me, I simply clean the rods to a smooth finish and then put a bit of grease that is all temp onto the rod and the hard tube.
Walter
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Gary,
The alignment fixture I have was purchased through Summit. It is a quality made tool compared to the one sold by JC Whiteney or even Eastwood and much easier to use. There is an optional piece that allows a fairly easy measurement of the toe using a tape measure. Not high tech like what some shops use, but you can do this easily in the garage and immediately tend to any mechanical issues that may prevent an adjustment to the proper values. Have heard too many stories of owners bring these king pin suspension cars in for an alignment and finding that the shop either does not know how to deal with them or these is an issue with the king pin or front end that prevents doing the alignment.
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Georges Summit lists dozons http://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/caster-camber-gauges?PageSize=100&SortBy=Default&SortOrder=Ascending&tw=camber&sw=Caster%20Camber%20Gauges
which did you buy?
Rolf-Dieter, You are talking about the rods for the lock and door latch that travel through the rubbe stand offs and the plastic guides the rods go through?
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I was reading through my old thread and just noticed this: abe280SL wrote, "-how you cant get your door windows adjusted to seal properly with the softop AND the hardtop".
I am getting ready to have a new lining and window seals (all back, sides and top/rear for the opening window). I haven't had the hard top on since I purchased my 250SL back in Jan. 2006. Will the window height need to be adjusted when attaching the hardtop? If so, what a pain!! I was hoping to go back and forth (hard top/soft top) like in do on my 560SL without any issues.
Please let me know if there's a way around this?
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You adjust the window to the Hard top first then remove it and wind the windows up and adjust the soft top to the windows. that way you will have them adjusted to both tops and can switch between them without any problems.
Garry
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JP. It is kind of a trial and error job but the best way to do it is install your Hardtop and adjust your glass to it. Then remove the Hardtop and put the Softtop up. Adjust the Softtop height to fit the glass by adding/removing shims under the softtop frame mounts. The softtop frame can also be slid fore and aft a little. Make sure you double check that the rear bar wont come in contact with the soft top compartment lid if you remove shims.
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Looks like Garry beat me to it while I was typing. :o
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Great!! There's hope after all!! Thanks guys. JP
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Well, sort of. Garry and Tyler make adjusting the soft top to the windows sound like a simple manoeuvre. It absolutely can be a complete pain in the arse sucking up many hours of your life and most of your will to live. Potentially.
You can also throw out the soft top fit if your soft top fits well already by shimming it, etc. If you haven't had your hard top on for a decade, are you certain it's worth the potential hassle of messing around with the windows and soft top frame now? Messing with the geometry of a well-fitting soft top in my view isn't for the feint hearted. However, if you've nothing else to do until Summer comes, give it go!
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Totally agree James,
It is not a simple procedure and could be classed as one of the biggest PIA jobs. It can take hours and hours and days and days to get it to all fit correctly and as Tyler said there is a danger of damage to the Hatch top or the chrome cap on the B pillar if it is not correctly fitted. Don’t ask how I know!!! :o
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Do we have a write up in our tech manual on the window adjustments? If not perhaps we should have.
I now run my 280sl only with the hardtop, I find that if my window is up all the way it hangs up on the rubber seal on top. So I leave the window open a bit and only close it completely once inside the car.
On my former M3 the window would automatically turn down about 1/4" when the door opened and then close automatically ... I wish I had this future on my 280sl, then doing it manually is not a big deal.
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I guess we can carry this window discussion over here >>http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=19974.msg141168#msg141168 (http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=19974.msg141168#msg141168)
Theres already a lot of discussion and tips in the thread.
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Merge with earlier topic. See posts from previous posts below/above back in 2014 for further detail
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Rolf-Dieter, The trick to keep the window from hanging up on the top seal is to first adjust the window stops and then adjust the regulator so the top of the window is first to make contact with the seal. But just barely first. If the side seals are making contact first, they push the window up and out when closing the door, making it hang up.
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Do we have a write up in our tech manual on the window adjustments? If not perhaps we should have.
I now run my 280sl only with the hardtop, I find that if my window is up all the way it hangs up on the rubber seal on top. So I leave the window open a bit and only close it completely once inside the car
Wholly agree with Garry on this. The point is that no amount of write up is going to make this any less of a shitty job than it is. It's all about trail and error. I think if MB techs were doing this regularly back in the day it would be a relatively quick job, but once in a blue moon turns it into a journey of discovery. With minefields. And the occasional pit of despair in the Thieves' Forrest. (You know the film)... .
The really key thing is to avoid the Elbow of Doom in the soft top roof as you mess with the geometry.
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Never stated it was easy..But it is do-able. As others stated, you may want to adjust the windows to the top you use the most and be done with it. There are others (like myself) that get an itch and wont let stuff like that go. Took me a full day and a half but I was already servicing the regulators to begin with. Lot of trial and error between the stops, regulator angle, guide position, chrome channel position, softtop position, etc...
Should have taken pictures along the way to share. Maybe I'll attempt a writeup of all the adjustment points and what they do as opposed to a step by step because...that would be almost impossible with all of the variables.
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A good writeup on what each of the adjustments do would be a great reference. If you do, it can put in the Tech manual.
Problem is that it takes you constant adjustments and half the time you are not quite sure what each is doing to another moving point within the whole window setup and as a result you find you are adjusting the same point a number of times and then realise that that adjustment throws out one of the other adjusting points.
I wish I could say I got mine done in a day and a half but reality is that it took me some weekends to get it all right and even then I was never satisfied.:-[ The second time around on my current Pagoda, I had an expert do it. ;D
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A good writeup on what each of the adjustments do would be a great reference. If you do, it can put in the Tech Manual
I second what Gerry said "would be a great help" one of you folks should just do it ... Put it on paper. Yes it will require to make many adjustments, and that statement or note if you like can be part of the write up. I am certain from your work and experiances you might find the "sweet spot of adjustment"
I am reminded when as a younger fellow I balanced a 50 MW hydrogen cooled generator rotor. It took a very long time. A few years past and I had to do it again (as it turned out it was a problem rotor that was load sensitive). Since I had a few years experiance under my belt the second time around. I made a plan to find the "sweet spot" of that rotor. I simply recorded data at 10 MW steps then purged the generator and run it on air then combined the air and hydrogen runs on one vector diagram to find the "sweet spot"
I got called again 2 years later since the generator again exhibited high vibration pointing to unbalance and from the load data I was able to perform a "one shot balance" no need to mention how happy the customer was.
If one of you documents your findings you may end up finding the "sweet spot" for the window adjustment to help others resolve the issue faster. It may be a simple statement like
"Top edge of glass to overlap top seal by 1/4" at the front tapering to 5/16" at the back see sketch"
Or something like that ... So let someone make a write up and let Garry add it into our Tech Manual. :) this is how the Tech Manual came to life from efforts of past and existing members ... Let us continue this trend ... It makes our site the best there is for our pride and joy (for some of us one of our pride and joys).