Author Topic: Coolant type & how NOT to drain it - update  (Read 12557 times)

jameshoward

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Coolant type & how NOT to drain it - update
« on: October 27, 2007, 03:39:27 »
About to change the coolant on the car for wintertime and fresh back from the car shop in Germany I discovered that they sell two types (nothing is ever simple here it seems): A cheaper BASF variant for normal engines, which actually mentions MB on the cars for which it is suited, and a more expensive BASF one which states it is for aluminium engines. I wondered if it would be better to use the one for alu engines, but didn't know if it would do any slight damage to an older alu engine. Does it matter at all?? Any views?

BTW, this is a great post on how the detail of how to do the job for anyone that's getting ready for winter:

http://index.php?topic=6385,mixture
« Last Edit: November 02, 2007, 01:35:07 by jameshoward »
James Howard
1966 LHD 230SL

ja17

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Re: Coolant type & how NOT to drain it - update
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2007, 05:30:33 »
Hello James,
The other alternative is to use the coolant from the dealer. It is supposed to be specially formulated for Mercedes-Benz engines. It is about $5.00 more per gallon than off the shelf brands over here in the U.S.  not that much more for peace of mind.

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

jameshoward

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Re: Coolant type & how NOT to drain it - update
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2007, 13:04:54 »
Hi Joe,

Sage advice. Didn't think of that. Will call the dealer tomorrow. It'll be interesting to see how much more their prices are over a generic brand than the $5 you experience in the US. I will take the call sitting down as my experiences over here to date suggest it will be pricey!

James
James Howard
1966 LHD 230SL

jameshoward

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Re: Coolant type & how NOT to drain it - update
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2007, 15:01:03 »
Mercedes charge an arm and a leg for their coolant in Germany - shocker. About 50% more per litre - and you have to take your own container to put it in! (Very un-German, that is).

So, I did some research on BASF coolant and found a few good bits of info mixed in with some advertising, I am sure. I found this:

In order to prevent the engine from overheating, the cooling system has to be capable of absorbing the heat generated in the engine and releasing it to the to environment, but this is more difficult during hot weather. The cylinder head in the vicinity of the exhaust valves are particularly prone to overheating. Motorists are therefore recommended to use a high-performance engine coolant. “BASF has been supplying Glysantin* for 77 years. It has an excellent reputation, and it has continually been modified and adapted to fulfil the stringent demands of automobile manufacturers”, said Ralf Strauss. Glysantin increases the boiling point of water to around 110 °C if it is diluted with water in the correct ratio of 1:1. The coolant can absorb more heat than water alone without boiling. Glysantin also prevents deposits from forming inside the radiator. Deposits can quickly block the fine cooling channels in the radiator and impair the release of heat to the ambient air, with the result that the engine can easily overheat during hot summer weather.

The engine coolants supplied by BASF do more than just cooling the engine. Glysantin protects all the metals in the cooling circuit, such as cast iron, aluminium, steel and brass, from corrosion. The presence of water and the high temperatures inside the engine combine to create a very corrosive environment. Corrosion can cause deep holes to be formed in the metal, which can cause the water pump or the whole cooling system to fail and can even cause the engine to seize up. The corrosion inhibitors contained in Glysantin reliably prevent corrosion by reacting with the surfaces of the metals with which they come into contact in the cooling system to form a very thin layer that is extremely resistant to corrosion. Glysantin also prevents parts made from rubber and plastics, such as the header tank, overflow tank and radiator hoses, from being attacked by the coolant.

The high quality of Glysantin has been regularly confirmed by specialists. DEKRA, the international testing and certification company, has awarded its “Highly recommended” seal of approval to Glysantin on several occasions since the award was first made in 1996. The automobile industry is also convinced by the high performance of Glysantin from BASF, because it has more approvals than any other coolant.

Leading automobile manufacturers have confidence in Europe’s best selling engine coolant. Glysantin Alu Protect/G 30 has been specially developed by BASF as a premium product for use in all conventional engines and in modern, high-performance aluminium engines.

“Glysantin meets the challenges posed by today’s and tomorrow’s engine technology”, said Axel Kistenmacher, sales manager for Glysantin in Europe. Glysantin has already been approved by Audi, BMW, DaimlerChrysler, General Motors, MAN, MTU, Opel, PSA Peugeot Citroën, Porsche, Seat, Skoda, VW and other motor manufacturers. Glysantin ensures that motorists reliably reach their holiday destination, whatever the weather.

...which seems to have the advertising bit built in, and then this post, which talks about phosphates and what they can do to your car. Don't know if any of it is true, but I'm sticking with my BASF coolant rather than the $20 per litre-bring-your-own-coke-bottle MB variant of probably the same thing.

http://stason.org/TULARC/vehicles/vw-technical/15-I-want-to-flush-my-cooling-system-Where-can-I-get-phosph.html

JH
James Howard
1966 LHD 230SL

jameshoward

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Re: Coolant type & how NOT to drain it - update
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2007, 01:34:17 »
And if anyone else is doing this and has read the post by (I think) Rodd Masteller where he says be careful you don't shear off the drainage bolt and consider using the hose to drain the rad instead, listen to him. Use the hose if you are unsure. I have sheared said radiator bolt and now have the rad sitting downstairs in need of a blanking plate (won't be using the plug hole again). As it turned out, the mounting plates either side of the rad have come apart. The BBB has a useful section that explains why this can happen and how to prevent it happening. (A diagram that talks about measuring distances and ensuring the difference between the housing and rad are almost identical).

I'm going to solder it today and put it back. Nothing like a face full of warm coolant to make you regret not listening to sound advice.

I've read the debate about taking the rad through the top )= remove hood) or bottom. It's very easy to remove through the bottom and takes about 30 mins. You don't even need to remove the air filter housing, although the battery tray needs to come out.
James Howard
1966 LHD 230SL

jameshoward

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Re: Coolant type & how NOT to drain it - update
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2007, 12:04:14 »
It turns out that I'm not going to solder it today, and neither is anyone else. Instead of just putting a blanking plate over the drainage plug (and so avoid the temptation of making the same mistake twice) I too the rad to a local shop that does all the work for BMW, Merc and Volvo. It's an amazing place. The owner is over 70 and the workshop is more like that of a blacksmith. Anyway, pressure test showed that the core was pretty bunged up and there was a very small leak I had not noticed.

400 euros later I will be the proud and broke owner of a refurb'd radiator. I suppose it wasn't a bad thing that the drainage plug broke off in the end.

JH
James Howard
1966 LHD 230SL

ja17

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Re: Coolant type & how NOT to drain it - update
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2007, 18:33:35 »
Hello,

The Sept/Oct issue of "The Star" Magazine has an excellent three page article on coolants by George Murphy. It goes into all the chemistry and theories.  
After reading the information you most likely will be on your way down to the MB Dealer to buy Mercedes-Benz brand coolant!

It also goes into some discussion on using distilled water as opposed to tap water.

George also goes on to say " If you buy your anti-freeze from an aftermarket source, use a reputable brand that meets current Mercedes-Benz formulation, typically labeled a "G-05" coolant.

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

bpossel

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Re: Coolant type & how NOT to drain it - update
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2007, 07:11:29 »
Hi Joe,

I reread the article in the STAR and when I get my car back together again, I will only use the MB fluid.

I have owned my 113 for over 4 years now and have changed my fluid at least 1x per year.  I know that is overkill, but a couple of the changes were due to changing out the radiator, water pump, etc...

Even though I have changed my fluid so often, last week, when I disconnected the heater hoses in order to remove the engine, a lot of rust water came out :( !  I never noticed this when I drained the fluid via the radiator drain plug...

I have been running on a 70/30 mix due to the hot Memphis temps...  70 percent distilled water (with Water Wetter) and 30 percent Prestone Antifreeze.  Obviously not a good brew for these engines :oops: .

 :?: Question...  When the lower end of engines are rebuilt they usually boil them out, which cleans up the water chambers.  Is there a way to get the same results with the engine still together, but out of the car?  I plain on having my head rebuilt, but if the cylinder walls check out within specs, I want to avoid taking the bottom end apart.

Advice?  Comments?

 :) Thanks!
Bob

bpossel  (Memphis, TN.)
'71 280SL  /  '97 E320

TR

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Re: Coolant type & how NOT to drain it - update
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2007, 09:20:24 »
I am confused about whether it is best to use distilled water or regular tap water in the coolant mix.  The reason behind this confusion is that the good folks in southern Calif. who have rebuilt a lot of these engines recommeded using everyday tap water and not distilled water.  However, the people who are supplying a new radiator insist that it be distilled water.

Tom in Boise
'71 280SL 4-spd, signal red w/lt. tan interior, restored/enhanced

ja17

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Re: Coolant type & how NOT to drain it - update
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2007, 22:00:59 »
Hello TR,

According to George Murphy's article, in most cases tap water is too hard and contains minerals. These minerals could cause problems many years down the road. The only way to be sure is to know what the hardness of  your tap water is or used distilled water. 120 parts per million or lower of minerals in your tap water is ok.

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

TR

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Re: Coolant type & how NOT to drain it - update
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2007, 10:01:36 »
Thanks very much Joe.
quote:
Originally posted by ja17

Hello TR,

According to George Murphy's article, in most cases tap water is too hard and contains minerals. These minerals could cause problems many years down the road. The only way to be sure is to know what the hardness of  your tap water is or used distilled water. 120 parts per million or lower of minerals in your tap water is ok.

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio



Tom in Boise
'71 280SL 4-spd, signal red w/lt. tan interior, restored/enhanced

ja17

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Re: Coolant type & how NOT to drain it - update
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2007, 21:35:54 »
Hello,

Here is some additional information to throw in on this thread;

You can test the PH level of your coolant by using PH test strips. The PH should be between 7.0 and 8.0   The PH rises as it gets older and becomes more harsh on plastic parts and aluminum. MB brand is made by Valvoline and formulated to Mercedes specs. It is  6.0 PH in the bottle and about 7.0 (neutral) after mixing with water 50/50 (showing the importance of the water mix).  

Prestone is a 7.5 PH in the bottle, Advance Auto Brand is 10 PH in the bottle! I have the listing of chemicals in each and the MB brand is quite different from the others.

(The above information was also taken from  an earlier article by George Murphy)

In addition, I have a March 1970 document from Mercedes-Benz of North America "Service Information" it has quite a bit of interesting information also, possibly more relevant since it is from the "era".

"we would like to caution you to the use of only those antifreeze products which are recommended for use in Mercedes-Benz cars. These products are shown in the manual of recommended fuels and lubricants (Betriebsstoff-Vorschriften) on page 325."

"Following is an excert of recommended antifreeze coolants which are available on American and Canadian markets:

Caltex Antifreeze
Chevron Antifreeze
Esso Antifreeze
Gulf Antifreeze
Mobile Permazone Antifreeze
Prestone Antifreeze
Shell Antifreeze
Sinclair Antifreeze
Texaco Antifreeze
Valvoline Antifreeze"

......So even information from Mercedes can be a little conflicting. I suspect that the formulations in the above have changed since this list was put out in 1970. In addition Mercedes new engines have different alloys, plastics and requirements these days.

The bottom line is do not leave it in the system too long with out checking the PH or changing it. Always use antifreeze even in warm climates, never, never run with just water. Consider using distilled water with your antifreeze if you are not sure about the tap water in your area.

In this market the difference in price using MB antifreeze and distilled water was less than $10.00 additional. Not really that much more for peace of mind and considering a gallon of gas is approaching $4.00 these days!

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
« Last Edit: November 15, 2007, 21:40:18 by ja17 »
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

ja17

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Re: Coolant type & how NOT to drain it - update
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2007, 20:12:12 »
Hello,

I ran into one last bit of information to add to this string. "Sept./Oct. Star Magazine" from the late Frank King; "In the US phosphates, nitraes, silicates and other substances are used as inhibitors. Phosphates are generally not used in  Europe because they can form insoluble calcium phosphates with hard water. It has been US practice to provide high alkaline pH values (9.0 to 11.0)"(domestic brands), "but in Europe, pH values of 7.0 to 8.5 (neutral to low alkalinity) are considered desirable to avoid corrosion of aluminum."

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
« Last Edit: November 22, 2007, 20:13:27 by ja17 »
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

J. Huber

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Re: Coolant type & how NOT to drain it - update
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2007, 18:05:11 »
So, I decided to try the PH test strips Joe recommended. My reading was a shade of green very similar to the 8 but maybe a little higher. This is a combination of three year old coolant and some recently added coolant/distilled water because of my water pump leak. Unfortunately, I don't know what kind my mechanic uses -- but I am fairly sure I "mixed" in a different brand. Both were green coolants. The good news is, car is going in next week and will get flushed and refilled. I'll be sure to ask what kind he uses.

James
63 230SL
James
63 230SL