Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Body, interior, paint, chrome, and cosmetic items => Topic started by: Trip on April 04, 2015, 10:48:27
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Hi, I have read the posts about the notches, but the pics are not very good, my car is finally at the paint shop and is missing them - I would greatly appreciate it if someone could email me a better close-up.
My email is: lance730@msn.com. Are they just 5/8 inch creases, or protrusions? I am just not clear on how they look. Thanks,
Trip Owen
DC
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I pulled these off Motoring Investments some time ago as I also have to get mine reinstalled. Hope this helps.
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EXACTLY WHAT I NEEDED - perfect.
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Trip,
They are a notch and a "step" at the same time. The portion below the notch is out a little further than the portion above.
Kevin
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What I would like to see is a close-up photo of the fender notches without any paint on them. Maybe someone has done a project down to bare metal and took an appropriate photo to share?
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There apparently are not any fender notches in bare metal. They do not appear to have been in the original stamping. The notches are either made with lead or with some sort of body filler to match the headlamp frame before priming and painting. At least that is what it appears to be when the non-original paint and primer were removed from my car. Someone who has carefully removed original paint can better discuss how the notches were made.
My fenders, had no notches or signs of notches after being repainted the first time. When I bought it , the paint was not original, but the base metal showed no signs of ever having had notches. My body restorer created the notches by building up the fender on both sides of the "notch line" to be flush with the headlight frame, using really good and hard body filler.
Tom Kizer
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There apparently are not any fender notches in bare metal../...
The notches were made by hand with lead at the Pagoda production line in Sindelfingen. This is why there are slight variations in shape between individual cars.
However, the general idea is to match (mirror) the crease on the outside of the fender. See also Kevin's note [reply#4].
/Hans in Sweden
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Here are mine from last year. buildup of filler and then 3/4 or 5/8 file notch. You can barely see them, so I hope you have a magnifier.
Mike Mizesko
Columbus, OH
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What I would like to see is a close-up photo of the fender notches without any paint on them. Maybe someone has done a project down to bare metal and took an appropriate photo to share?
PJ,
why do you want to see them in the nude? They are falsies! ;D
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Live and learn :-)
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Alfred.
That's a little harsh. I like to think of it as restoring what God, (or Stuttgart) intended.
BTW, No Silicone or Saline here.
Mike
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I think (God ... Stuttgart) made a mistake to ship the cars out with the fender notch on the first cars shipped, and then just continued to do so LOL ~grin~ (just kidding).
I don't have any fender notches and you know I don't miss them at all, I love my car as she is :)
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Ah yes, the Holy Grail known as fender notches. :) I've actually watched guys turn there nose up at a car because it didn't have any.... :D
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Have owned 7 Pagodas and the variations in the fender notches were amazingly different.
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I can almost hear the conversation between the body designer (styling), the design engineer (engineering) and the plant engineer (assembly plant) now. I wish I could repeat it in German.
The design engineer says, "Hey, Wolfgang, left and right headlight frames and chrome surrounds are too expensive. The have to be identical to minimize tooling and inventory."
The body designer answers, "No way, Hans. That would mean we would have to stamp a matching groove in the fender on the inside of the headlight. That changes the draft angle, becomes too complicated to draw the sheetmetal and the scrap goes up. On the other hand, we can't remove the groove on the outside of the fender because it runs the full length of the car and the board has already approved the clay."
The plant engineer, Werner, jumps in with, "Why do you guys always have to make things difficult? Just make the headlights the same, tell me how much we will save, and we'll fix the fenders at the end of the line with a glob of lead and a file for half the savings. We just want the plant to get credit for the savings. OK?"
The design engineer says, "OK, lets go get a beer. I'll buy."
Fifty three years later, we are still discussing what was, at the time, an excellent decision.
Been there! Done that! End of Problem!
However, since Herr Friedrich Geiger is no longer with us, perhaps someone might pose the question to M. Paul Bracq. He was probably closer to the problem than his boss at the time anyway.
Tom Kizer
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Mr. Bracq is a member of this site. Just send him a personjal message.
Mike
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Mr. Bracq is a member of this site. Just send him a personjal message.
Mike
PM sent
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Dieter,
it's been almost a year. Did M. Bracq reply to this thread? Not too long from now, I will have to decide whether our body shop leaves the notches out or fakes them like the factory did.
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Peter he never ever replied, I suggest you have the notches put in if they are not there. It should be visible to the naked eye where they should be if they have been filled with paint in past re-painting. I assume. You had the body shop go down to bare metal before they repainted your car.
If all fails have them use a paint gauge or use your light chrome rings to line up the notch locations.
Cheers Peter
PS. When is your car going to be all done? Later this summer?
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Peter he never ever replied, I suggest you have the notches put in if they are not there. It should be visible to the naked eye where they should be if they have been filled with paint in past re-painting. I assume. You had the body shop go down to bare metal before they repainted your car.
If all fails have them use a paint gauge or use your light chrome rings to line up the notch locations.
Cheers Peter
PS. When is your car going to be all done? Later this summer?
I have a hand in this job. We have almost all of the mechanical portion done but there's still a lot to do. some chrome and interior will be done now so it will be ready when it all goes back together.
So, to answer your question, eventually.
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do I get extra credit if my notches are in the steel? The guy doing my metalwork is pretty fussy about things like that (He once sent me a picture of the hood gaps labeled to the hundredth of a millimeter) so he hammered them out in the steel.
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do I get extra credit if my notches are in the steel? The guy doing my metalwork is pretty fussy about things like that (He once sent me a picture of the hood gaps labeled to the hundredth of a millimeter) so he hammered them out in the steel.
Oh Shvegel I would like to meet your metalwork man. Obviously you would recommend him, so if you could please share his contact info in vendor section that would be great.
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Oh Shvegel, really to the hundredth of a millimeter where does he live near you? We know you live somewhere in the US does he live within driving distance to your house or did you have to truck your car to him?
Im asking of course since a 100 of a millimetre = 0.0004" I would have hired this feller when I was in business as a machinist to maintain TIR (total indicator runout) of my rotating element bearing journals within my specified 0.0002" If you ask me your metalwork fellow is in the wrong business LOL
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He's good but he is slow. Almost 10 years now. I made the mistake of sending my Father in law's 911 to him and of course he banged out the 911 and my car is still "In progress". No one gets his contact info again until my car is done.
Rolf-Dieter,
He's about 700 miles from me. He actually flew in and drove my car up as we thought this was going to be a refurbishment. Shortly thereafter he arrived with a truckload of crates that used to be my car. He finished the metalwork then trucked the shell to Detroit for E-coat epoxy coating and I brought it home for undercoating and seam sealing. It is now back at his place getting painted. He basically skinned the entire car and replaced all the inner structure as well. To his credit the only seam that required and filler was a 4" seam between the quarter panel and the trunk hinge panel. Everything else was metal finished to perfection. I have to look and see if I can find the picture of the hood gaps.
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My father in law's car. Before and after.
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Found one from first fitting. He then filed the hood to fit the final opening and sent me one with stickers all over it.
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I assume the measurement on your tag is mm (Millimeter). If so your fellow has the gap set much too close. The Mercedes spec for this gap is 4 mm ... 4.0 mm (= 0.15748") all around.
Looks to me like he is working to the tenth of a mm not a hundreds :) just saying ~grin~ Did he never check what the correct gap should be or did you tell him to make it smaller?
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.../... The Mercedes spec for this gap is 4 mm ... 4.0 mm (= 0.15748") all around.../...
Yes Rolf-Dieter, this is what M-B body repair manual states.
I have purchased these devices [see pic], which I have found useful for instance when re-fitting hood (bonnet) back onto the SL. I set the plastic spacers to 4mm and the suction cup (or square magnets) holds them in position.
/Hans in Sweden
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Hello Hans,
Nice to have the right tools :) my dad always said to me
"son you don't have to know everything, just know where to find it and once you do know what to do with it"
Well done Hans !
Dieter
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That was the initial fitting. He filed the hood to the proper gap. Unfortunately when the car was baked and then E-coated the side gaps widened and he made a fixture to pull the fenders back in and bring everything back into alignment.
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.../...filed the hood to the proper gap.../...
OK, so all is well, great
Unfortunately when the car was baked and then E-coated the side gaps widened.../...
Oh no! How could this happen? Any expansion in the metal due to baking (warming up) should have shrunk back, no?
Sounds like something to beware of.
/hans
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Back to the original topic. The consensus seems to be that the fender notches are original. (Sorry, Dan.) And all the jokes about how the Teutonic Masters decided it had to be done this way are very cute. But I still have a hard time believing the factory used lead or cheap plastic to form them. Maybe John in Placerville or someone else with a trusted original can try the magnet test on the notches?
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Peter,
The reason so many notches are missing is not because the fenders have been changed. The steel is original but the notches are lead and tend to get sanded off during any repainting.
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Maybe John in Placerville or someone else with a trusted original can try the magnet test on the notches?
Magnet sticks to the notch. The plot thickens:-)
John
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I don't have the Notches ... ;)
Oh well I love her just the same ... :)
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Notches were definitely added after the metal fenders were stamped out of sheetmetal.
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Peter,
You should be adding a thread (you must have tons of photos and videos by now) of all the work that is ongoing. Don't be shy now ~grin~
Btw ... Did you ever find the notches?
I don't have them and I like it that way ... So I said it :)
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Hi Dieter and everyone
it's been months since I checked this thread. Our body shop is not quite at the point of deciding about the notches.
In the meantime, we have all moved into what the pundits are calling a "post-truth" world. Joe insists the notches were added after the fenders were stamped, but John provided a photo to show that his trusted original fenders have nothing but metal under the notches.
I realize you and Dan are among those who say there is no special value to the notches, but I think they are cute. I hope I can persuade the body shop to put them right in the metal.
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Hi Peter,
As you know the notches should line up with the notches in the light chrome ring. I still don't think much of the notches for the simple reason that the light chrome rings go on only one way so why the "line up Notches in the Fenders" to my mind it makes no sense at all.
Anyway, my car was re-painted by RM in 1992 and they filled the original notches. If you like your notches back (unless your fenders are new and have no original notches ~ I say this since I believe the notches may not be in replacement fenders) just have your painter use a small pencil like magnet and go over the edges were the notches should be then the magnet will tell him where they are since the fill material is not magnetic.
I still think that the notches were put there with a chisel at the factory paint shop. However, I stand to be corrected by our learned Forum Members.
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hello,
I'm working on a 280 and after sandblasting it did not have notches, after i cut out the lamp housing i had room to make them myself.
Last year i also did a 230 and again after sandblasting it did not have notches.
first foto 280 sl
second foto 230 sl
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Hi Joel,
Nice job! You do all the work yourself (remove everything then blast, restore and paint and finally put it all together again)? How long did it take you to do the 230SL.
Cheers,
Dieter
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Also keep in mind a good magnet will stick to the steel behind the lead notch. There are a ton of cars with original fenders but the notch has been sanded off.
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Hi Rolf-Dieter,
My client takes them apart and send them to me. I send them out for sandblasting and i do the body work. he puts them back together.
this is the 280 project:
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=24700.0
The 230 took me quite some time but it is my job and I love it.
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Hi Dieter
I thought the whole point about the notches was that the chrome trim ring is the same on the right & left fenders. I only see a single headlight trim on the websites of Authentic Classics, SLS and K&K. Am I wrong about this?
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Peter, I don't know the answer to this, perhaps Alfred or Hans from Sweden will chime in and clarify this.
Dieter
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There is only one part number: 1138260189
for the chrome frame for Euro lamps and you need two of them per car.