What model might be best for my needs?

[n/a]

Hello all,

I am a long time multiple Porsche 356/911 owner and am starting the process to find a sport-touring car for myself and my wife to enjoy. Seems like I have found the place for the cars and the people.

Can any of you out there give me a 10-cent tour of the characteristics of the 230SL/250SL/280SL models as far as what each does best. From my homework the cars hp/weight ratios seem all in the ballpark but this give nothing away to the character of the cars.

What I hope to get out of the car:

1.)  Very reliable (for a 60's era car) once all the bugs are ironed out. I would want to be able to go on weekend trips with a low probability of the car dumping its mechanical innards on the side of the road.

2.) Handles well - within reason (Saw the add on OurSL for John Olsen Sport Springs if I need to stiffen things up) as I would like to do some driver's education events in it. Lighter the car the better.

3.) Comfortable and quite

4.) Long term durable engine. Do the later style block with more main bearing supports handle long term stress much better?

5.) Something I can work on myself.

6.) Rust resistant as possible (I live in CA so this is not imperative)

7.) What amount of money would buy a wonderfully sorted car? $20K?, $30K?, More?

8.) Any weaknesses with the manual transmisions? as I would only be purchasing a manual-equipt car.

9.) What were the differences from the European models to the USA models? Any reliability differences for cars without all the emisions stuff? What years did the emisions stuff come in?

Thank you all so much for whatever info any of you can provide.

Regards, Peter Z

[enochbell]

Peter,

Welcome to the affliction and discussion board.  The quality of your questions reflects some serious insight into what you want and will get, I applaud you for the effort.

You are going to get a huge and varied response, most of it fairly objective, to your questions.  I would suggest that you use the search feature on the board to deep-dive specific issues.  There is even a thread that addresses directly (if not passionately) the perceived differences between the models.  Here's my $.02:

The differences between models is really fairly small. As you note, the wt./hp ratios are fairly constant: bigger engines/more torque/more horsepower/more weight.  I think the main bearing issue (5 vs. 7) will get a general snooze for a response, it is not that big a deal. As with most multi-generation car models the later versions get a little more sophisticated, a little heavier, a little less quirky.  The early versions in this line are a bit lighter, a bit simpler. One big issue (to some) is the transition from drum to disc on the rears, beginning with the 250sl?  I think the biggest differences you will see don't relate to the model and year but, rather, with gearbox and steering.  I am a fan of manual all the way with a stock wheel.  The cars are an absolute pleasure to drive.  A sorted out car is very reliable in any configuration.

Rust is a huge problem.  Never have I seen a Euro model without it.  Rareley have I seen a U.S. model without it.  There is a recent thread on the board concerning good places to look for beginning rust spots that would not be noticeable on general inspection.

If you are looking for a very nice, rust free, restored and complete model you will find everything you want in the $30k range (+/- $5k).  Show quality cars will add 20-30k on top of that, and if you find one that is truely show it will be worth every bit of the price:  to get an sl to show quality from average quality can cost close to $100k, and there are people who have spent that but, at least to my knowledge, none have yet to sell in that range.

Best of luck,

g

'64 230sl, fully sorted out...ooops, spoke too soon

[bjudd]

Peter,

Welcome for a relative newbie (had my 280 since July).  Are you connected with the "EASY" folks in Emmeryville?  A couple of the 356 guys that meet there Saturday mornings have helped me sort some things with my pagoda and I plan to bring it down at their next gathering.  Roy Spencer at oursl.com lists a lot of these cars and is on the peninsula not too far from you.

try search engine because it has answers to many of your questions in detail.

good luck


bjudd
1969 280 SL 5 sp

[gugel]

Peter,

Welcome to the list.  I don't consider myself really a Pagoda expert, as I've only had my 230SL for about 4 years (2 since restoration).  However, I am also in the southern California area and I do have some opinions on your questions.

1) The Pagodas are reliable.  Some owners complain of an overheating problem, but I've never experienced it.

2) The Pagodas handle well, although the swing axle introduces some quirks.

3) Comfortable, yes.  Quiet, decidedly not.  Both motor and wind noise are loud.

4) Unless you're going to race or drive for long stretches at Autobahn speeds, I would doubt that the extra main bearings in the later models constitute much of an advantage.  Many people prefer the rear disk brakes of the later models, but my 230SL brakes are great!

5) Pagodas are simple enough to work on yourself, although small hands do help for under-dash work.  Also, in some respects these cars were apparently never meant to be taken apart -- the heater core and the hardtop chrome come to mind.

6) They do rust -- important to check the critical places when you're looking for one to buy.

7) For a condition 2 car in SoCal, I think you'd be lucky to find one for $30K.  For condition 3, needing only moderate work to make it reliable, etc., you might possibly find one for $20K.  230SL's are cheaper than the other two models, and IMO are just as desirable.  I also believe that any Pagoda in good condition is a good investment.

My 230SL is manual, and IMO the transmission feels a bit old fashioned -- relatively long shift throw, rather loud, etc.  Except for that, I don't know of any specific problems.

9) Mine is European, and I like the look of the headlights and the lack of bumper guards in particular.

______________

If I may ask, why are you interested in a Pagoda in particular?  The main reasons I love my car are its beauty (one of the all time great designs), the overall elegance of the car (leather/paint dash, great chrome accents), and the combination of a roadster/coupe/softop in one car.  

But you did mention quiet as desirable, and while it may be heresy to say so on this list, you might also think about a '72-'74 BMW 3.0CS or CSi.  (I own one of these too).  It's also one of the most beautiful cars ever designed, and has a much more modern suspension and handles much better than the Pagoda, is much quieter, and generally has a much more modern feel.  Reliability, rust, etc., are much the same for the two cars.  And the price of the BMW is probably only a bit more than half the price of a Pagoda in similar condition.  Of course, if you want an open car, the BMW doesn't qualify.  It all depends on what you want.

Good luck,

Chris Earnest
'65 230SL

[n/a]

"If I may ask, why are you interested in a Pagoda in particular? ..." & "But you did mention quiet as desirable... "

My reasons for looking in this direction is that I love the looks of the car, would only buy a German sports car, and want more torque than what I am used to (Porsche 356), I want an open-car, would like something more "squishy" (softer) than the Porsches I am used to, and when I say quiet, I am comparing quiet to an early 50's Porsche 356 (Pre-A), not to a modern car. Mercedes also has such a wonderfull history and I have always liked all of their cars. I want something my wife will enjoy driving in and driving as well...

From what I have read, the 230SL's look to be along the lines of what my personality best maps onto. It seems that it would be much easier to find a model with Std. transmision and no power steering which I find desireable and they are lighter and simpler. Modern, but not too modern.... Are there any engine or drivetrain differences between the 230SL European and American models?

Thanks for all the ongoing info folks...

Regards, Peter

[rwmastel]

Peter,

Welcome to our little obsession!  Drive train difference are mainly:

- Rear drum changed to rear disc brakes during 250SL production.
- Various differential ratios were offered.
- I believe a grease point on the drive shaft disappeard somewhere during production?
- For a few years a 5-speed manual (ZF brand) was available.  These are expensive (rare) and now the parts are even more so.

Generally, the cars are all very similar in their core.  As production continued, more & more cars were equipped with auto transmissions so most 230's are manual and most 280's are auto.  I have a Euro 230SL with an auto.  If I knew then what I know now, I would have looked for:

- an early pre-emissions European 280SL for less complexity, better looks (lights/bumpers), and more power (hotter camshaft).
- a manual 4-speed transmission.
- a high (or is it low?) differential ratio like 3.69 or less.  USA 280's had a 4.08 ratio.

I'm not sure how many serial numbers you can go before getting bogged down with engine warm up devices, throttle cut off, and other emissions/fuel efficiency stuff, others will know.

There's a lot of differences in the cosmetic trim over the years and USA/Euro.  Things like head rests came earlier to USA cars, door pockets are different, USA cars had bumper guards, headlights are different, tail lights are different, etc.  My car doesn't even have seat belts, something I want to change.

Your #1 concern needs to be rust.  Unless you qualify, have members here refer you to a Pagoda body specialist in your part of California to examine any possible purchase for rust & rust repair.  Search our site for "rust".

Happy shopping!

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420

[Douglas]

One more thing -- I wouldn't be so quick to seek out a Pagoda without power steering. I think many owners prefer the power steering setup.

[A Dalton]

quote:Originally posted by Douglas

One more thing -- I wouldn't be so quick to seek out a Pagoda without power steering. I think many owners prefer the power steering setup.

 ... and not an easy change.

[KevinC]

Peter,

I started out by looking for a later (280) manual shift car and ended up with an early(ish)230. Why? Condition. I looked at several cars all over the US (I travel on business every week) and ended up with a very well-maintained 132,000 mile car with an engine that had been properly rebuilt at 118,000. I had seen cars that looked great from uptop but once on a lift...Yikes [:0]. Remember these cars are in the 40 year old range and have been subjected to differing degrees of car. If you want one that is pretty much "good to go" I would go for the "package" rather than specific details. But that's just me.

Welcome and Best of Luck!!!

-Kevin

PS: I also wanted a darker colored car...look what I ended up with! Could not be more pleased, though.

 

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Kevin
Boca Raton, FL
1967 230 SL Automatic
670 Light Ivory
113 Bronze/Brown MB Tex

[DavidAPease]

Hi, Peter,

I see that you are just "down the hill" in Los Gatos.  (I am in Redwood Estates, near the Hwy 17 summit.)  Since you want reliability, I'll mention that I have a 230SL that I drove to the 113 Tech Session in Ohio this summer (6000-mile round trip in 2 weeks, in summer heat), with no mechanical failures, so I certainly consider the Pagoda a reliable car.  If you'd like to get together and chat and/or drive sometime, I'd enjoy that.  

I happen to like my Euro 230SL a lot, and favor the look of the earlier, less cluttered exterior and somewhat (IMHO) more classic interior.

Feel free to send me an email if you'd like to meet up some time.  (Of course, it's not the best convertible weather right now, but I'm still driving it when the sun comes out.)

-David Pease
'66 French 230SL

[Naj ✝︎]

Peter,
The Pagoda is one of the top 10 choices for people who go historic/long distance rallying.
If you can get your hands on a UK magazine 'Octane', October (sorry) November '05 issue, there is a write up about a Pagoda preparing for the London to Sydney rally.
My reason for buying one two.

naj

65 230SL
68 280SL

p.s: Have a look here:

http://www.octane-magazine.com/

under: Magazine Features

naj

[George Davis]

Peter,

the other replies cover things well, but I'll add a bit.  First, in my opinion a stock 280 SL handles well.  I attended one MBCA drivers ed and autocross and flogged the car fairly hard and it did well - beat everyone else including an AMG or two, 'though I probably had the most perf driving experience in the group.  Also flogged the car a bit in Yosemite this summer on a really fun, twisty road.  No one passed us, we passed them, had the tires complaining once or twice, no problem.

But, having said that, if autocross type events are something you're interested in, my power steering was really baulky, it fought back hard on sudden inputs.  It probably needs to be overhauled, but it might be best to go without power steering.  In normal driving there isn't much differnce between them (thanks to James for letting me try it!), although parking might take more effort.

Also, hard braking from freeway speeds is a seriously interesting experience.  Heavy nose dive and it feels like it wants to swap ends.  You quickly learn to leave a lot of following distance between you and the car in front.  I suggest going out and trying it some time and place where you won't get hurt, just to get a feel for it.  I'm not interested in stiffer springs, but others say they help reduce the nose dive/instability under hard braking.

Last, for touring you might want a/c.  Get a car that already has it if you think you'll want it.  I'd lean more toward a 250 or 280 in that case.

Otherwise I agree with everyone else, I'd take any of 'em!

George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual

[TR]

Peter -- My wife just suggested I mention you ought to consider the rear wind screen deflector if you want your wife to be happy while driving with the top down.  In my experience it makes all the difference in terms of the ladies' comfort & satisfaction.

And we all know the old story of "if momma ain't happy..."

You mention John Olson.  Did you see his recent upgrade of W113s, where he expects a 100% price increase within the coming 5 years?  If my CAGR calculator is working correctly that comes out to a compounding annual growth rate of nearly 15%.  As a few people on this message board know, I've owned my '71 280SL for over 20 years and intend to keep it forever.  So while increasing values will have no impact on me, I guess I just kind of enjoyed that forecast from John.

Tom in Boise
'71 280SL 4-spd, signal red w/lt. tan interior, restored/enhanced

[J. Huber]

Hi Peter. To really butcher a metaphor, I think all three models are basically three sides to the same coin. All have similar qualities, yet at same time, I doubt two Pagodas are ever exactly the same. A lot of this has to do with variations in models but maybe more to do with the history of the car. This is where your scenerio of "once all the bugs are ironed out" is a huge question mark. Most of the bugs, or "idiosyncrasies" are discussed within these walls -- but just how they will apply to your car is the great unknown... So finding out what has been done to the car is important, and using some of our issues as a measuring stick could really help.

Now about steering, since George referenced me, I'll add my experience. Mine has no P/S. I have always thought the car handles great and hugs the road. Really feels like an old sports car. However, I have now driven two that have P/S and that feeling is very nice too. Because we are all used to P/S on modern cars, it feels a bit more "modern." Overall, I agree with George that the difference is not substantial. He is correct though, that parking and three point turns, etc. requires a little muscle... I kinda like that as it reminds me I am in a 40 year-old "chantin' car" (as my Dad used to call it).

Best of luck.

James
63 230SL

[enochbell]

Except for going a bit overboard with the polishing wheel, this looks like a fine example.  Too bad it is automatic, but it is a good example of pricing, me thinks,

Best,

g
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mercedes-Benz-SL-Class-280SL-Documented-Restoration-As-New-Simply-the-Best_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6338QQitemZ4595229409QQrdZ1

'64 230sl, fully sorted out...ooops, spoke too soon

[Tom]

To make these cars comfortable for the misses, noise can be substantially abated with the following improvements:

1.  Install a 3.27 rear end to reduce RPMs at highway speeds.
2.  Install sound deadening material while you are replacing carpet.
3.  As Tom Rose suggests, the windscreen will really eliminate noise when the top is down.  With the top down but windows up, it's very quiet and warm on cold nights.
4.  Make sure the valves are adjusted to reduce engine noise.

1971 280sl Tunis Beige Metallic (restored & enhanced)
1971 280sl Tobacco Brown (low mileage stock)
1970 280sl Deep Red (Project Car)