Soft Top Frame Fit Above Windows

[tdun824259]

I've replaced my tension cable that holds the drivers side soft top down to the frame to close the air space.  However some how in the process my soft top frame has become somewhat misaligned.  On the drivers side, the frame of the soft top (the two pieces of metal which split over the window) do not snap into a nice straight fit.  These two pieces of metal that split over the window which hold the two pieces of weather stripping  now "sag" towards the ground.  I can put a clamp on them to staighten them but they won't stay in that position once I remove the clamp.   The passenger side that I haven't messed with snaps smartly into a perfectly level postion above the passenger door as intended.  Before my original cable broke the drivers side soft top frame fit properly too.  So I assume I need to adjust something on the frame to regain a proper fit.
Any advice?
Thanks
Tim Dunagan
1971 280 SL

[tdun824259]

Since there were no posts to this subject, I did some investigating.  In visiting with Gernold Nisius he indicated that the fit of the frame above the windows may be out of alignment due to a shift in the foot print of the frame within the soft top compartment.  By shifting the foot print forward my problem may be solved.  He also indicated that it may be tough to tighten the tension on the cable to get an airtight fit.  I hate to stuff the space with foam but it may be the only solution to obtaining a tight fit above the window frame.  I'll shift the foot print this weekend and see if that solves my frame issue.
Tim Dunagan
1971 280 SL

[waltklatt]

Tim,
How is the fit of the glass to the soft top when both are closed?  Are the gaps nice and snug?  If so, then moving the footprint will not make any change as it will be more tight.
Best bet is the cable is too tight and wont allow the lock to occur in the two pieces above the door glass.
It's like a knee joint in the leg, if you move the knee further back you lock your leg straight, same idea here.
Walter Klatt
1967 220SL-diesel
1963 230SL-gas

[tdun824259]

Walter,

Thanks for the reply.  I've actually loosened the cable completely.  The gaping above the windows is greater at the forward and rear portions of the glass and tighter in the middle wear the hinge is at within the frame of the soft top.  In other words the gapping is very uneven.  I understand the 'knee joint' analogy, but I don't think the cable is the culprit since it's completely loose.  I have a feeling in my zealousness I tried to over tighten the cable and slightly shifted the foot print.  Any other thoughts are appreciated.  I may shoot a picture (worth a thousand words, I'm told)!
Tim Dunagan1971 280 SL

[jeffc280sl]

I'd like to bring this discussion topic up again.  I have the same problem with my soft top.  I have a new passenger window which is slighly bowed across the top making the V in the top section over the window even more problematic.  I have tried everthing I can think of to address the problem.

Any new experience out there?

Thank you,

[tdun824259]

Jeff,

I haven't played with the fit of my soft top lately.  On last attempt, I was shifting the foot print to attempt to make a difference.  It never solved the problem.  I believe that there are
'shims' under the main foot of the soft top.  My car is in the shop right now correcting a flywheel issue.  When it come back I plan to investigate the addition or reduction of the drivers side shims to see the impact.  Have you tried this?

thanks for reviving this post

Tim Dunagan
1971 280SL

[jameshoward]

Jeff,

You say you've tried everything. Can you tell me what you've tried? Tim mentions the shims; what about those? There is also the positioning of the softtop in relation to the cars body - as I am sure you've discovered already the holes into which the frame bolts are elongated, not round. There is also a small degree of lateral movement in the frame.

I have recently put a new softtop on my car and had a devil of a time with the softtop gap. However, by removing the shims and playing around with the roof position I got the gap to near zero. The trick, as you have summised, is to reduce to nil that v-shpaed gap on the frame where the window and frame meet. I removed all my shims having put in more than there were. It was a complete bugger of a job, but to me the shim were key. Once I had the gap removed, I then found it near impossible to close the top (big gap at the front where it latches to the windscree). Thereafter I fastened the top at the front and slackened off the soft top securing bolts to allow the frame to find it's own position. This worked. I also had to go back and readjust the window position/height - another crappy job to do twice. With the windows right up, I have to close the door by pushing at the window to make the glass fit into the new rubber seals. However, that does mean that there is no gap. Someone else pointed out that new cars with softtops drop the window on opening and closing the door. I am in effect doing the same thing by pushing the door closed using the glass. Sort of. Also check you have taught wires to keep the wind proof strip in place. They can be quite hard to get tight, but they can take a lot of stress so makesure they're good and hard when the roof is up.

Enough rambling. I have photos of the shims and the whole area if you wish. Let me know.

It is possible to fix. Good luck.

JH

[jeffc280sl]

James and Tim,

I have tried every combination of shim and all positions for sliding the base forward and aft.  I now believe the top material is streched too tightly from the above window hoop to the front windshield.  Over the years I have made minor adjustments in the top and not thought to look at the whole assembly.  I'm going to go back and have a look at the top material.  Inside the straps are a little loose but the material is taught.  In order to latch the front I have to pull it forward pretty hard to line up the pins.  The material is too tight so it tries to compensate by bending at the knee above the window.  I'll keep you advised.

[rwmastel]

quote:Originally posted by jameshoward

I also had to go back and readjust the window position/height - another crappy job to do twice. With the windows right up, I have to close the door by pushing at the window to make the glass fit into the new rubber seals. However, that does mean that there is no gap. Someone else pointed out that new cars with softtops drop the window on opening and closing the door. I am in effect doing the same thing by pushing the door closed using the glass.

James,

You may already know this.  There are little screws that tighten/loosen the window clamps (guides) at the top of the door.  These (one on each door) are located near the leading edge of the black fuzzy trim.  If you loosen these, the windows will "fall" in towards the car when fully up.  When you close the door, the window will touch the lower part of the rubber trim and slide up into place.  This does, in effect, what you are doing manually.

[DavidBrough]

Getting the correct adjustment on the windows between hard top and soft top is one of the real pains on a Pagoda as the fit is so good when right.

I’ve done all the shim and window adjustment shuffling many times and seem to have reached some sort of compromise that seems to work. I still have a small problem with the soft top as when ideally placed the lid catches on the back of the frame when raising and lowering, so I have to be a bit careful, but the widows do seal.

For me the discovery that if you get the lean angle right the window slips up into the rubber seal very neatly was the clincher as Rodd says. You do have to be very careful as too much lean in can shatter the glass but the correct angle just slips the glass under the leading edge of the rubber and up into the heart of the seal for very quite motoring. However, the problem I now find is that the if I lower the windows down with either top they will not reseal, however much I pull on the winder, unless I open and close the door. I never really had a problem before but as they leaked so much it probably made no difference. All this winding up and opening and closing the door can be a real pain sometimes especially when my wife tries it after pulling away from European toll booths.

David Brough
1969 280SL Auto with A/C & 3.46 Axle

[jameshoward]

Rodd,

First, let me state just how much I LOATHE going into the door on my car. The adjustments drive me mad. That said, could you please explain a little more about these screws. I am aware of several adjustments. First, the two screws forward and rear of the window that act as stops at the top and the bottom when wound up or down. Then there is the stop screw on the window mechanism itself which stops the handle being wound too far. There are also the 2 screws that hold the glass in the channel. The only other ones I am aware of are the small white plastic ones that are on the window guide thing that (twice) tends to fall off some cars and rattle around the door. Is that the one you mean? If so, I assume you mean that one loosens it to allow the window to fall forward? I don't see how this works if this is what you're talking about, as the guide is straight all the way up, is it not?

Or have I completely misunderstood the part you mean??

JH

[rwmastel]

James,

These screws of which I speak do clamp down on a plastic window guide, but this guide is stationary at the top of the door, at the leading edge of the glass, near the chrome strip with black fuzz.  I don't recall if anything major needs to be removed to access them, maybe the door panel, or the exterior chrome part?  I will check at home tonight and post a picture if I can.

It looks like nobody has created an entry in the tech manual for windows, so maybe I will make that my first attempt at contributing.
http://www.sl113.org/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=ChassisBody.Windows

[DavidBrough]

James,

The adjusters that affect the lean in/out of the window are at the bottom of the door where the base of the channel guides mount, they are bolts with lock nuts and wind the lower mountings in or out, I’m afraid I don’t have any pics but they are fairly obvious once the door card is removed. The correct setting of the window is obtained by adjusting the height to just slip under the rubber and then adjusting the lean in so the glass just catches the inner edge of the rubber and is forced up slightly into the V. On mine I found that I couldn’t quite get enough height on the glass so pushed it as high as I could and then adjusted the lean in to properly seal on the rubber. All this must be done with the hard top then you shim the soft top to fit the windows. Hope that helps.


David Brough
1969 280Sl Auto with A/C & 3.46 Axle

[Naj ✝︎]

quote:The adjusters that affect the lean in/out of the window are at the bottom of the door where the base of the channel guides mount, they are bolts with lock nuts and wind the lower mountings in or out, I’m afraid I don’t have any pics but they are fairly obvious once the door card is removed.

Door Glass Lean Adjusters:

Front:



Rear:



naj

[rwmastel]

quote:Originally posted by DavidBrough

The correct setting of the window is obtained by adjusting the height to just slip under the rubber and then adjusting the lean in so the glass just catches the inner edge of the rubber and is forced up slightly into the V. On mine I found that I couldn’t quite get enough height on the glass so pushed it as high as I could and then adjusted the lean in to properly seal on the rubber.

Sorry I forgot to take pictures last night.

The angle of the tracks that create the initial "lean" is done at the point shown in the pictures posted by Naj.  BUT, remember that the bottom edge of the glass is firmly fixed to the lift.  The guide of which I speak is at the top of the door edge.  Loosen this guide and it will allow the window to flop in/out more when it is up.  See?

[jameshoward]

First, Naj, you're ace. You have a picture for everything. I've always been impressed and have oft thought of saying so but never did. Top stuff.

Rodd - no, I don't. I have seen the part Naj has in his 'photo but never twigged as to its purpose. I just can't picture (pun intended) the part that you mean. If you do have a 'photo, perhaps you could post it? Don't worry if you don't. The next time I'm in the door I am sure I can figure it out. But this is turning into a really useful thread.

JH

[Naj ✝︎]

quote:Originally posted by jameshoward

First, Naj, you're ace. You have a picture for everything. I've always been impressed and have oft thought of saying so but never did. Top stuff.


JH

I have an 'older' camera I have kept for garage duties.   :oops:


 

quote:Rodd - no, I don't. I have seen the part Naj has in his 'photo but never twigged as to its purpose. I just can't picture (pun intended) the part that you mean. If you do have a 'photo, perhaps you could post it? Don't worry if you don't. The next time I'm in the door I am sure I can figure it out. But this is turning into a really useful thread.

OK, James Here's the top screw I think Rod is talking about



naj

[rwmastel]

Naj,

That's it!  This screw tightens a plastic guide.  If you leave it loose, the window can flop in/out more, allowing for that all important "lean-in-then-slide-up" feature.

If I am way off base on this, someone please correct me!  I don't want to be the winner of the "Miss Information Pagent".

[paulr]

is that Miss or mis, dear ?

quote:Originally posted by rwmastel

Naj,


If I am way off base on this, someone please correct me!  I don't want to be the winner of the "Miss Information Pagent".

[Naj ✝︎]

Hello, Rodd,

quote:Originally posted by rwmastel

Naj,

That's it!  This screw tightens a plastic guide.  If you leave it loose, the window can flop in/out more, allowing for that all important "lean-in-then-slide-up" feature.

If I am way off base on this, someone please correct me!  I don't want to be the winner of the "Miss Information Pagent".

Sorry Rodd, If one goes thru all the trouble of getting to that screw, in my view, it would be better to adjust the 'lean' with the proper adjustments.
More flop only means more rattle when window is down or part way up...

[rwmastel]

quote:Originally posted by paulr

is that Miss or mis, dear ?

That is exactly the pun.  "Miss Information" vs. "misinformation"  There are several people at work who have earned that title, regardless of gender!

[rwmastel]

quote:Originally posted by naj

If one goes thru all the trouble of getting to that screw, in my view, it would be better to adjust the 'lean' with the proper adjustments. More flop only means more rattle when window is down or part way up...

My thought was that the adjustment to the actual track would not allow for any "flop" in the system.  It doesn't matter how much angle you put into it.  If the angle is tight and fixed, you don't get that "lean-in-then-slide-up" feature without putting stress on the glass.

[jeffc280sl]

In my quest to fix the V in the center of the top window frame I have taken the material off my frame.  Understanding the interaction of the various arms when trying fix this issue is truly daunting.  I have taken many of the pieces off the frame to compare with the mirrow image on the other side.  Discovered a bent section that could not be seen while on the car.  With some heat and hammer I was able to fix the bent section.  That was part of the problem but no all. I have always had to force the frame forward with quite a lot of force in order to get the top pins to align and latch.  This made the knee bend worse.  I installed shims, removed shims, puit shims under the front bolt and under the rear.  Slid the top frame forwards and backwards but nothing seemed to help bring the pins closer to the windshield holes and straighten the V.   Removed more sections which is a pain because the bolts have been peened on the end to keep them from backing out.  Had to make a wide screw driver that I couls attach to a 1/4 inch ratchet to get the screws out.  Piece by piece I removed, installed, removed and installed various combinations of sections.  I think I have discovered a key and will continue working on it later today.  From there I will put the material back on and should be good to go.  I'll advise more details and some pictures as I complete the work.

[jameshoward]

Jeff,

It's a great deal of fun working on the roof, is it not? Not.

You mentioned your pain in trying to close the thing with a gap between the front pins; basically an alignment issue. I had exactly the same problem. I may have mentioned it below, but my solution of sorts was to close the roof at the front, then loosen the bolts holding the frame to the chasis at which point the frame found it's own position. Thereafter I adjusted the rear bow and the locking mech at the rear to allow for simple closure. It's been OK since, but I've been in Iraq for a while and haven't driven the car for a bit. Now I'm back again I'm going to lower the roof and see what adjustments have remained. But before that I need to replace my broken bloody water pump...

Let us know how you get on, but I'd recommend trying the self-seating solution along the way.

JH

[jeffc280sl]

James,

Thanks for your suggestions.  I tried everything in my efforts to get a better fit.  I think the bend strut and oh I forgot to mention a broken stop bracket near the base indicates something went wrong with the PO and they probly sat on the top to get the back lid to latch.  Not sure really but a lot of force was used, enough to bend the 1/4 steel brackets and break off the stop.  My TIG welder came in handy.

I'm glad to hear you got back safely from Iraq.  The water pump is no so bad.  But I usually turn one job into several while in the area of the car so it usually goes a bit slower.  Change all of those short hoses while there, clean the front of the engine etc while there.