Author Topic: Injector Pump Timing & Other Pump Info  (Read 29694 times)

Ben

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Injector Pump Timing & Other Pump Info
« on: February 21, 2003, 02:40:06 »
I have a manual, for the 280, which states pump timing is set at 20 degrees ATDC. Is this the same for my 230 ?

Also I have the little "T-bar" dipstick on the back but also have an oil feed from just under the distributor on the block via a litlle metal pipe to the right side of the pump. Is this correct?

Also is their anything generally recommended to use as an additive to the pump in relation to the engine oil used to lube it ?

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2003, 20:41:01 by rwmastel »

Cees Klumper

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Re: Injector Pump Timing & Other Pump Info
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2003, 05:56:36 »
Ben - here's some of what was in the first 3,000 Yahoo posts on the topic of oil supply for the FI pump. Maybe others can add to this to answer your questions more specifically:

"Oil supply
Where my injection pump dip stick should be is a 14 mm nut with a slotted top. It appears very difficult to turn. Any insights as to why this slotted nut is where the dip stick should be. Did some dip-stick put that nut there?

Someone must have lost the dip stick. I assume they put a bolt in it's place with a nut to lock it so it would not leak/loosen.

On my car the nut is the dipstick.  Took me 7 years looking at the diagrams to figure it out. I could not loosen it with a screwdriver, use a 14 mm socket.

I changed the oil in my 230 SL fuel injection pump. Instead of the T-shaped dipstick, my dipstick was on the end of a 14 mm nut. The nut had a screwdriver slot on the top. Using a window cleaner bottle pump, I was able to pump out 130 ml of old oil. I thought it might of had a slight gasoline smell but the oil didn't look diluted. To replace the oil you need a very small funnel. The small end should have an OD of 7 mm. Measuring the oil taken out and keeping and eye on the dipstick, it turned out to be a relatively easy task.

Will: best way to tell if there is an oil supply to the injection pump is to look at the left side of the block near the front. There is a small cross-section steel line that comes from there and goes to the right side of the injection pump body. This is the oil supply.

Pete Lesler: the fuel injection pump on the 250 SL also used a oil dip stick and a red oil filler cap.

I used a window cleaner bottle pump to remove the oil from the injector pump. On the top rear is a red cap with access to remove and add oil. Maybe the red cap has been replaced with something else as in my case. I pumped out about 130 ml of dirty oil. I am currently using 20 W 50 in the crankcase and the same in the injection pump. You will need a very small funnel to add new oil to the injection pump. The OD of the small end funner has to be 7 mm. I would get this funnel before I start.

I don't have a red cap on top of the pump, but I do have a metal cap that's about 20-25mm across. I will try the 14mm box end wrench for the dip stick bolt and the spray bottle tool for oil removal. So, you put the oil in through the dip stick bolt hole (7mm) instead of the large hole under the (red) cap on top? It's a shame you can't drain the oil out the bottom. I'll bet there's sludge and junk in the bottom of the housing that the spray bottle pump will not remove. Any way to really clean these pumps out?

I put the oil in the hole under the red cap or where the red cap should be. The hole size there was 7 mm (on my car). Maybe someone else can shed some light on this.

The red plastic cap simply replaced the metal cap of the earlier version. 250 SL had red.

Where did you syphon from, the small dip stick hole or the larger hole on top of the pump? Which hole did you refill through? Do you recall how much you put back in? I haven't removed the dip stick yet, is it accurate right off the bat, or do you have to run the car and measure again? Can you tell I haven't done this before? I'm always nervous messing with something for the first time.

I got a squirt bottle. I got the dip stick out with a screwdriver (no bolt edges, just a screwdriver slot and T-bar). After removing the dipstick I began to clean it. I noticed a driping sound. It was oil running out of the now open hole. When it stopped, there was a puddle on the floor about 12 inches (30 cm) in diameter. I removed the top cap (mine's metal, not red plastic) and began using the pump method. This was not simple due to cramped spacing and I would recommend the siphon method for others. The squirter pump went dry after pumping out 18oz (53 ml) into the bottle. I would say that this was a little overfilled, no? What problems could this overfilled state have caused? Have others found this problem on their cars as well? Once again, if this helps anyone identify how much oil I should put in, my F.I. pump ID Plate says: PES6KL70/120R11 609 33714. I will replace fluid in through the top cap and keep checking the T-bar dipstick for a fill level as I go.

Overfill interferes with the fly-weights at higher rpm fuel metering."


'69 white 280 SL
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
1990 Ford Bronco II

Cees Klumper

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Re: Injector Pump Timing & Other Pump Info
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2003, 06:04:53 »
And here's some good information contributed earlier by Joe Alexander and Pete Lesler on injection pump timing/adjustment:

"Joe Alexander says: experimenting with the fuel injection by the unexperienced is risky. The injection pump timing on the gasoline engines should not be tampered with under normal conditions. The timing is not nearly as critical as on diesel engines. A few degrees variation on the gas engines should make no noticable difference unless the car is a 300-SL roadster or gullwing which have fuel directly injected into the cylinders like a diesel.

On the 113 cars fuel injected above the valves in the intake passage not in the cylinders. The earlier injection sedans had two piston pumps which squirted three cylinders at the same time, fuel mixed with air and hung around in the intake passage until the valve opened and the mix entered the cylinders. It seems imprecise but worked great. My point is that the injection timing is not extremely critical unless it is way off due to some other mechanical problem. It is certainly overkill for a standard tune-up. A rack adjustment knob is located on the back lower cover of the injection pump. After everything else in the ignition and linkage is in perfect adjustment this knob can be used to adjust the -idle to 1700 rpm- range of the fuel mixture. Other higher rpm range settings are inside the pump and are not meant to be tampered with during normal tuning.

Pump adjustments can only be done with the engine off. A CO meter and lots of experience are most helpful. The large slotted idle air scew on the intake (follow small hose from air cleaner) can also be used to finetune rpms and mixture at idle and low speeds and is often used in conjunction with the pump adjustment. The danger is that an unexperienced technician will mistakenly change perfectly good injection settings because of another tuning or linkage problem! The intake butterfly valve scew on the intake opening is often mistakenly used to adjust idle. It is a factory setting and normally should not ever be tampered with. Besides causing idle problems it will also cause hard downshifting of automatic transmissions when tampered with. Restore this factory setting by disconnecting the linkage at the intake butterfly, unlock the 10mm nut on the adjustment screw and adjust until the butterfly valve is completely closed - now turn the screw just enough to keep the butterfly valve from binding. Lock it down with the 10 mm nut and keep it there (on later 113 make sure the vacuum dashpot, also on the intake, is moved out of the way temporarily during this procedure).

Linkage lengths are also set at the factory and are also a huge source of idle and run problems when tampered with or due to excessive wear.

Pete Lesler: unless you have prior knowledge that your pump needs adjusting, leave it alone! Do the typical ignition tune-up with filter replacement and perhaps valve adjustment and iginition timing. Then see where you are. At a minimum, your mechanic will need a CO meter and should test the car on a rear wheel dynamometer. Since hardly anyone has access to a dynamometer like this, the best you can do is check CO at idle and perhaps 3000 RPM, but this is without any engine loading. Unless someone has fiddled with the pump, this work is probably unnecessary. If the car runs rich, it could mean the thermostat on the fuel injection pump needs replacing. Usually as they age, the thermostat rod shortens, resulting in the pump delivering more fuel throughout the range of operation. My advice, unless you know the pump is out of adjustment, leave it alone. It is very difficult to get it back into proper adjustment if you have lost your initial settings."

Cees

'69 white 280 SL
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
1990 Ford Bronco II

rwmastel

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Re: Injector Pump Timing & Other Pump Info
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2003, 07:02:21 »
Ben,
What are the codes on the pump's ID plate?  We can tell by that if it's the right pump for your early 230SL.  What is your chassis and engine numbers?  We should make sure your engine is right for your car as well.

Rodd


Rodd
1966 230SL Euro
1994 E420
« Last Edit: February 21, 2003, 07:04:08 by rwmastel »
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Ben

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Re: Injector Pump Timing & Other Pump Info
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2003, 09:49:22 »
I think both the pump and the engine are correct but here are ALL the numbers !

Ch; 113 042 20002068
Eng. 127-981-20001749
Pump; PES6KL70/120R11  406 08438

Thanks guys !

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.

Ben

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Re: Injector Pump Timing & Other Pump Info
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2003, 10:07:02 »
BTW the reason I asked about the pump timing is that I have just rebuilt everything on my engine and I need to reinstall the pump. I just wanted to reconfirm the 20 degree mark was correct.

I dodnt intend meddling with the pump settings as it ran well before the rebuild, with smooth idle, easy hot/cold starting and pretty good mpg.

Obviously I will check the emissions and adjust if neccesary AFTER the valves/plugs/ignition timing are spot on !

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.

ja17

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Re: Injector Pump Timing & Other Pump Info
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2003, 01:57:25 »
Hello Ben,
Yes 20 degrees ATDC is correct for all the engines in these 113 cars. Be sure you set it at 20 degrees ATDC on the COMPRESSION stroke #1 cylinder. Check this by removing the oil filler cap and viewing the camshaft lobes over #1 cylinder. They will be pointing roughly upwards (valves closed) during the compression stroke.

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

hands_aus

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Re: Injector Pump Timing & Other Pump Info
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2003, 01:32:49 »
Hello Ben,
There is an excellent discussion about the injection pump on the SL Market Letter number 223
There is a web address to download the file in zip fomat
www.slmarket.com/fuel.zip
If you want to look around the site try
www.slmarket.com

I had a look at my inj pump and it has the oil line too.
regards

Bob(Brisbane,Australia)
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL #114, auto, ps , 717,717
best of the best

hands_aus

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Re: Injector Pump Timing & Other Pump Info
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2003, 21:51:23 »
Hey Ben,
I have been re-reading the messages on the Yahoo site. I found an explanation for the use of the little oil line from the block to the back of the injection pump.
Look at message 2066.
Quote
These engines actually inject a measured ammound of engine lubricating oil,
through a small oil line with an orfice, into the fuel maniford at the back
of the fuel injector pump. Gasoline, unlike diesel, is too dry to properly
lubricate the Baosh fuel injector plungers, so the oil added to the gasoline
accomplishes this. This is why these engines have a 2 quart low mark on the
dip stick.
unquote
If you follow the thread you will probably find more info about the topic
Hope this helps
regards


Bob(Brisbane,Australia)
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL #114, auto, ps , 717,717
best of the best

ja17

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Re: Injector Pump Timing & Other Pump Info
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2003, 22:30:42 »
Hello Bob,
In actuality, that oil line behind the pump on the 250-SL and 280-SL does not go into the fuel manifold but below it where it lubricates the injection pump mechanism. The oil  actually drains back to the engine crankcase on these later M130 engines. With earlier 113 engines (230-SL, early 250-SL), The small metal oil line enters the pump higher on the back. The function of the oil line and it's supply of oil was to form an oil seal at the injection pump plungers.  The oil supply in the pump itself was isolated.  The little dip stick on the injection pump was used to check the level of its stored oil on these early pumps. (revised and corrected 9-27-03).

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
« Last Edit: September 27, 2003, 18:51:08 by ja17 »
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

hands_aus

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Re: Injector Pump Timing & Other Pump Info
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2003, 04:16:23 »
Hey Joe,
Thanks for the info.
The reason I followed it up was that Ben mentioned (in the first post of this topic) that his 230 sl has the little oil line AND the dip stick. My 250SL has both the oil dip stick and the oil line also.

I am now a bit confused about my inj pump.

I suspect there are two separate oil chambers on my pump. One lubricated by the little reservoir with the dip stick and one lubricated from the engine itself via the little oil line.
Does that seem possible to you?

Probably MB experimented with different Inj Pumps in the cars until they settled on the final one for the 280SL.

regards, Bob(Brisbane,Australia)

Bob(Brisbane,Australia)
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL #114, auto, ps , 717,717
best of the best

ja17

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Re: Injector Pump Timing & Other Pump Info
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2003, 06:30:56 »
Hello Ben,
Yes the 250-SL does have both the dipstick and oil line. However the oiling function of the pump is different. The early isolated oil supply pumps used the oil line for "oil sealing" the injection plungers. The oil line in the later pumps entered the pump lower and supplied circulating oil for lubrication and "oil seal".  The oil level in all later series pumps, should automatically seek their own correct oil level. Oil above the full level simply drains back into the crankcase. On the early pumps the oil level must be checked with the injection pump dipstick.
(this post was corrected and updated to reflect latest information)

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
« Last Edit: September 27, 2003, 18:36:11 by ja17 »
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

Cees Klumper

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Re: Injector Pump Timing & Other Pump Info
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2003, 15:01:46 »
Ben's FI pump is correct for his 230 SL (PES 6 KL70/120 R11)- but also appears to have the oil feed line which I understand from above posts was not added until the 250 SL. Is it possible it is NOT an oil feed line?

'69 white 280 SL
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
1990 Ford Bronco II

ja17

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Re: Injector Pump Timing & Other Pump Info
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2003, 17:30:04 »
This is a good opportunity to do a little research! Maybe some  members of the group with a 230-SL can look to see if there engines have the small metal oil line running between the engine block and the injection pump? It can be viewed, if you have one, by looking between the injection pump and the engine block. This metal line is only about 3/16" or 4mm in diameter and may have a checkvalve fitting arrangement at the pump end. Please report your findings.



Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

W14

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Re: Injector Pump Timing & Other Pump Info
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2003, 18:20:25 »
I have the same pump number as Ben, as well as the small oil line, and the "slotted nut with dip-stick".


Will W14
1965 230SL 4spd

Bill Rader

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Re: Injector Pump Timing & Other Pump Info
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2003, 19:45:24 »
My late 250sl(#4765)has no dip stick.Just a red cap.
Bill Rader
68 250SL 4spd

rwmastel

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Re: Injector Pump Timing & Other Pump Info
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2003, 22:21:43 »
Bill,
This dip stick can be hard to find, it's not on top of the pump, but on the rear of it down low.  Very hard to see from any angle.

I just looked at my pump, which is a PES6KL70/120R11, and I have three lines coming to/from it.  If you consider fuel injector pump cylinder #1 towards the front of the car, then I have:

1.  A large line, about 6mm, that went from #6 (engine side) down below the pump to the fuel filter housing.  I assume this supplies filtered fuel to the pump?

2.  A large line, about 5mm, that went from #1 (engine side) around the front of the pump, into a fuel flex line, and down to an unkown device.  I assume this returns fuel to the tank?

3.  A small line, about 1mm, that goes from #4 (engine side) and travels forward, bends down then around the front of the pump, and terminates in the engine block below the distributor area.  I would think this could supply oil, but there is only one line, so it can't be a circut.  I don't know what this is.

Pics of #3 attached

Rodd

Download Attachment: fi7.jpg
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Download Attachment: fi8.jpg
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Rodd
1966 230SL Euro
1994 E420
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Ben

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Re: Injector Pump Timing & Other Pump Info
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2003, 10:59:18 »
The set up that Rodd describes in the last post is exactly as my car !

So which way does the oil flow ?

Maybe if one were to overfill it, this pipe would be utilised to return the oil to the engine !

Anyone ?

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.

n/a

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Re: Injector Pump Timing & Other Pump Info
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2003, 17:14:18 »
My 66 230sl Euro also has the same oil line.

Jerry P.

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Re: Injector Pump Timing & Other Pump Info
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2003, 20:40:24 »
Ben,

Hi.  When I first found out about the dip stick, I unscrewed it and fluid poured out!  I then siphoned (pumped) out the rest and that remaining fluid measured over twice the normal amount that was supposed to be in there.  So, I doubt it takes the excess off, unless my line is clogged.

Rodd
1966 230SL Euro
1994 E420
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2006 Wrangler Rubicon
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