Author Topic: Is my head gasket blown?  (Read 35174 times)

rgafitanu@gmail.com

  • Guest
Is my head gasket blown?
« on: July 19, 2016, 14:53:08 »
Hello,
It has been hot the past couple of month in MA. About 3 weeks ago I had to add water to the engine, about 2 qts. I thought that it evaporated (the W111 doesn't have an expansion tank). Then yesterday I had to add another 2.5 qts. I became suspicious, I pulled the dipstick and to my horror it was full of orange goo, the valve cover cap showing the same (see pictures).
I am certain this started over the last 6 weeks. I remember checking the oil and it was clean and to level. I retorqued the head bolts maybe 6 months ago.
The engine runs very well, a few weeks back I pulled all the spark plugs and they were all consistently on the rich mixture side. There is no smoke on the pipe to suspect that coolant or oil made it's way into the cylinders (the engine is a 230).
From the posts here it appears that if I am lucky I may have some loose head bolts. If not then it's the head gasket. It wouldn't be the first head gasket that I replaced in my life but the rusty/seized exhaust manifold bolts worry me.
Anybody has any suggestions?

Tyler S

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, Encinitas
  • Posts: 1613
Re: Is my head gasket blown?
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2016, 15:24:17 »
Best way to approach this is to pressure test the cooling system. Pressurize the cooling system to 1 bar and look for external leaks. Use a pressure tester with a gauge. If the needle drops and there are no external leaks then chances are the head gasket is bad. You may get away with retorquing the head but thats a long shot. Usually there is head gasket material missing or the head could be warped.
1968 (67) 250sl. 4 speed manual. DB180 Silver
1955 220 Cabriolet A. White Grey
2019 E450 Wagon. Majestic Blue
1936 Ford PU Flathead V8. Creme on tan interior.
1989 Volkswagen T3 Westfailia Campmobile. Dove Grey (blue)

Rolf-Dieter ✝︎

  • Platinum
  • ******
  • Canada, ON, London
  • Posts: 3683
    • Best Pagoda Site second to none!
Re: Is my head gasket blown?
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2016, 16:26:20 »
This brings a question to mind ... 2 years ago my head cover was removed (without my permission while exploring for leaks) once the head cover was reinstalled some leaks were found. The leak was stopped by re-torqing the head cover bolts.

My Question is; "How often can the head cover gasket be re-used?"

Dieter
DD 2011 SL 63 AMG and my 69 Pagoda 280 SL

rgafitanu@gmail.com

  • Guest
Re: Is my head gasket blown?
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2016, 12:24:02 »
Tyler, I tried yesterday for leaks. I do not have good equipment for that. I have a compressor but I would need the proper fittings to try to connect to the radiator cap. I have no doubts the coolant is going into the oil. In one month more than a gallon of water was gone and I didn't see one drop under the car or anywhere else. Meanwhile the dipstick tube is filled with orange paste which appears to be inside the valve cover as well.
So, if I am lucky the bolts need retorquing or the gasket bought the farm. I will warm it up and check the bolts, drain the oil/orange stuff and add new oil to see if the retorquing solved it. If not the head would have to come off. The only silver lining to this is that I may get to find the cause of the rocker noise that didn't go away after valve adjustments.

krdalke

  • Guest
Re: Is my head gasket blown?
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2016, 13:15:15 »
From the pictures it looks like either a blown head gasket or a cracked cylinder head.
Keith
Factory trained MBZ master Technician since 1993

ja17

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, OH, Blacklick
  • Posts: 7312
Re: Is my head gasket blown?
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2016, 13:54:34 »
Hello, on the 230 engine you can safely go 5 lbs over specs on the torque. That may help. Be sure to loosen the radiator cap before beginning the process.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

Benz Dr.

  • Vendor
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • Canada, ON, Port Lambton
  • Posts: 7137
  • Benz Dr.
Re: Is my head gasket blown?
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2016, 17:27:50 »
I agree with Joe. Anything more than 5 lbs extra torque can pull metal in the block.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

stickandrudderman

  • Vendor
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • United Kingdom, England, Richmond
  • Posts: 2815
    • http://www.colinferns.com
Re: Is my head gasket blown?
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2016, 21:55:56 »
I think you should just take the head off and overhaul it. I would never expect an engine that has contaminated its' oil with water to that extent to be reliable without proper repairs.

rgafitanu@gmail.com

  • Guest
Re: Is my head gasket blown?
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2016, 12:25:07 »
Yesterday I removed the valve cover and what I found is below. The orange foam is everywhere.
I retorqued all the bolts to 70 ftlbs. On all of them the wrench clicked before breaking loose so I do not think there was any serious loosening. Looking again at these pictures I think that changing the oil/filter and run it to see if retorquing solved the leak would only be a waste of $35 for oil/filter.

Tyler S

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, Encinitas
  • Posts: 1613
Re: Is my head gasket blown?
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2016, 16:21:26 »
I think your going to want to remove the head. Check for warpage and inspect the valves and guides while you have it apart. It would be a good idea to pull the small oil pan and clean that area out as well.
1968 (67) 250sl. 4 speed manual. DB180 Silver
1955 220 Cabriolet A. White Grey
2019 E450 Wagon. Majestic Blue
1936 Ford PU Flathead V8. Creme on tan interior.
1989 Volkswagen T3 Westfailia Campmobile. Dove Grey (blue)

tel76

  • Associate Member
  • Gold
  • *****
  • United Kingdom, Isle of Man, Douglas
  • Posts: 835
Re: Is my head gasket blown?
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2016, 18:57:23 »
I agree it looks like you will have to remove the cylinder head, from reading your re-torqueing procedure it would appear that you did not release each individual stud separately before re-torqueing.
It is worth informing members that when re-torqueing a cylinder head that the radiator cap is removed (pressure released) and each stud is backed off (undone) before re applying the torque.
Eric

Tyler S

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, Encinitas
  • Posts: 1613
Re: Is my head gasket blown?
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2016, 19:12:01 »
Really would be good if you could pressure test the cooling system. There are 3 welsh plugs on the top of the cylinder head under the camshaft that can also leak coolant into the valvetrain area. Not common but it is a possibility and would not require head removal. Its good to check all possibilities before condemning anything. A local auto parts store may be able to rent you a coolant system pressure tester. It's basically a hand pump with a gauge. Since no adapters are available for our style coolant bottle flange/cap, you would need one that tees into a heater or radiator hose.
Here is one I modified using an old w113 radiator cap. Recently used it on another members car to rule out a head gasket issue.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 19:20:47 by Tyler S. »
1968 (67) 250sl. 4 speed manual. DB180 Silver
1955 220 Cabriolet A. White Grey
2019 E450 Wagon. Majestic Blue
1936 Ford PU Flathead V8. Creme on tan interior.
1989 Volkswagen T3 Westfailia Campmobile. Dove Grey (blue)

rgafitanu@gmail.com

  • Guest
Re: Is my head gasket blown?
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2016, 20:34:43 »
I did release each bolt individually before retorquing it and then move to the next from the center outwards (forgot to mention). I did not remove the radiator cap when I retorqued the bolts for the first time 6 months ago, I did not know and possibly that created the leak.
Tyler, I will try to make some fitting to pressure test, you gave me some hope. I witnessed a few blown gaskets and there is always a lot more, smoke, noise, rough running, overheating and I have none of these. The engine runs perfect, not a puff of smoke at start or later.

ja17

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, OH, Blacklick
  • Posts: 7312
Re: Is my head gasket blown?
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2016, 21:32:55 »
I have found some head bolts through-drilled into the water jacket from the factory.  This could cause your situation and not a blown head gasket. You car runs great, that is not the case with most blown head gaskets!
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

Tyler S

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, Encinitas
  • Posts: 1613
Re: Is my head gasket blown?
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2016, 01:07:42 »
Pull your plugs and have a look at them. If one of them is really clean then the head gasket or cracked head is most likely. Head gaskets rarely fail between a water jacket and oil return hole. But it is possible. Which could explain the engine running fine. Theres no coolant gettng to the combustion chamber.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2016, 01:13:14 by Tyler S. »
1968 (67) 250sl. 4 speed manual. DB180 Silver
1955 220 Cabriolet A. White Grey
2019 E450 Wagon. Majestic Blue
1936 Ford PU Flathead V8. Creme on tan interior.
1989 Volkswagen T3 Westfailia Campmobile. Dove Grey (blue)

rgafitanu@gmail.com

  • Guest
Re: Is my head gasket blown?
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2016, 17:33:47 »
Yesterday I held the compressor hose to the cap vent while holding a rubber bloc to the cap to put some pressure on the system. Being the highest point I was hoping to see coolant bubbles somewhere, at the plugs or at the oil holes but nothing, no noise except some hissing which could have been from the cap (the only place with air).
I just pulled the plugs and as you can see they all look the same. I am thinking of draining, cleaning everything including the bottom pan and run it again. Maybe the retorquing closed the leak.

Tyler S

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, Encinitas
  • Posts: 1613
Re: Is my head gasket blown?
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2016, 18:13:39 »
The orange tinge on 2 of the plugs indicates either you use octane booster or it is indeed eating coolant. (water or coolant + high temp + steel = oxidation)
What happens is the coolant is only getting into the cylinders when the engine is off after a drive because the cooling system is still under pressure and the head is slowly getting thinner due to temp drop. When the engine is running the combustion pressure and slightly larger head thickness can keep most of the coolant out.
1968 (67) 250sl. 4 speed manual. DB180 Silver
1955 220 Cabriolet A. White Grey
2019 E450 Wagon. Majestic Blue
1936 Ford PU Flathead V8. Creme on tan interior.
1989 Volkswagen T3 Westfailia Campmobile. Dove Grey (blue)

lurtch

  • Full Member
  • Silver
  • ****
  • USA, CA, Santa Rosa
  • Posts: 368
  • " ICON 66 "
Re: Is my head gasket blown?
« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2016, 00:10:11 »
Hello RG - -

Sorry to say this, but I fear the worst for you and your situation.

On my engine the cylinder head corrosion was so bad it was declared scrap metal by Metric Motors.
No amount of squeezing down the head bolts is going to replace metal that is not metal any more.

Larry in CA
Larry Hemstreet  in  N. Cal.

1966  230SL  Met. Anthracite w/ Maroon leather
1981  300TDT (Concours, 86K w/ GETRAG 5sp)
1982  300TDT (rough and rusty)
1986  560SEC (totaled)
1991  300TE (gifted)
1998  E320 (sold)
2004  E320 wagon (gifted)
2008  CLK550 cabriolet

mbzse

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • Sweden, Stockholm, Stockholm
  • Posts: 1748
Re: Is my head gasket blown?
« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2016, 09:14:28 »
Quote from: lurtch
.../...On my engine the cylinder head corrosion was so bad it was declared scrap metal .../...
Whoaa...
Larry, any indication how the head came to end up in such a bad condition? E.g. service history, type of coolant etc.
In other words, what to avoid, he he.
Two of the cover plates on the right side of the block look like they were self-made(?) for instance, and what is the plate at right front?
/Hans S
« Last Edit: July 23, 2016, 09:20:07 by mbzse »
/Hans S

Tyler S

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, Encinitas
  • Posts: 1613
Re: Is my head gasket blown?
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2016, 16:23:49 »
Hans, one thing I have seen from working on cars of all makes/models is the yellow or "gold" coolant just doesnt hold up. It starts going south very quickly and its color also masks visible rust or corrosion in the cooling system. Change to the blue MB type or other coolant. Other mfg such as VW have been using this since the 2000's.
Regardless, check Ph levels and change your coolant.
1968 (67) 250sl. 4 speed manual. DB180 Silver
1955 220 Cabriolet A. White Grey
2019 E450 Wagon. Majestic Blue
1936 Ford PU Flathead V8. Creme on tan interior.
1989 Volkswagen T3 Westfailia Campmobile. Dove Grey (blue)

rgafitanu@gmail.com

  • Guest
Re: Is my head gasket blown?
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2016, 02:52:33 »
I guess it doesn't make any sense to put oil and filter hoping that retorquing fixed it. I should start taking the head off. I looked closer at the plugs and indeed on two of them the ground electrode has some orange tint.

rgafitanu@gmail.com

  • Guest
Re: Is my head gasket blown?
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2016, 16:42:48 »
I just took a picture, coolant is coming out of cylinder 4 which is also the plug with the orange tint. I guess I'm taking the head off. This process has been documented here before but maybe I should post it with pictures.

Tyler S

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, Encinitas
  • Posts: 1613
Re: Is my head gasket blown?
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2016, 16:58:41 »
Here is a thread I started back in Feb when I removed my head for reconditioning. Took a lot of pictures and documented some steps. Let me know if you need some pointers.  ;)
http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=23889.0
1968 (67) 250sl. 4 speed manual. DB180 Silver
1955 220 Cabriolet A. White Grey
2019 E450 Wagon. Majestic Blue
1936 Ford PU Flathead V8. Creme on tan interior.
1989 Volkswagen T3 Westfailia Campmobile. Dove Grey (blue)

rgafitanu@gmail.com

  • Guest
Re: Is my head gasket blown?
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2016, 14:20:57 »
Tyler, I read your thread about 4 times. I drained the coolant yesterday, pulled the exhaust heat shield and sprayed PB Blaster on the manifolds' nuts. I will start today and one question is about the coolant port for the sensors. Is it possible to unscrew the port from the head with the others still attached to it. I would like not to mess with the temperature tube.

Tyler S

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, Encinitas
  • Posts: 1613
Re: Is my head gasket blown?
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2016, 15:23:02 »
Yes it can be removed after the coolant hose to the wrd is removed. It just barely clears the IP but its do-able. Then tuck it over by the subframe mount opening. Take your injection and coolant lines off the car. Gives you a whole lot more room.
1968 (67) 250sl. 4 speed manual. DB180 Silver
1955 220 Cabriolet A. White Grey
2019 E450 Wagon. Majestic Blue
1936 Ford PU Flathead V8. Creme on tan interior.
1989 Volkswagen T3 Westfailia Campmobile. Dove Grey (blue)