It's planning time...Body Off Restoration

[ChrisInNashville]

Looking for references:

I spoke yesterday to David Latham at Bud's which is a couple hours from my house in Chattanooga.  I'm the second owner of my car which originated as Moss Green with Cognac interior.  Original owner painted it red in the 80's...quality paint was used, but it was not a body off job.  She also Ziebarted it.

So, now I'm in the planning phase for doing it right and returning her to Moss Green. I want to anticipate issues for planning.

First, has anyone had experience with Bud's on a restoration.  If you don't want to be public, please send me a private message.  Is there someone else you recommend?

Second:  I'm anticipating the body will be sandblasted to bare metal.  There is a bit of rust that will require repair.  But what are the other residual impacts should I expect?  For instance, all rubber seals will be removed and replaced and that's not cheap.  What other things like that need to be addressed?

Third:  what's been your experience with time for this type of restoration...weeks or months?  What did it cost you (acknowledging that different cars have different needs...)?

I'm in the first inning, but I'm also a planner, so any insight you can provide so I can avoid surprises is appreciated. 

[RobSirg]

Hi Chris,

Great to hear you are taking your car back to its birth colours - it sounds like a great colour combination you have there.

I haven't used Buds but I hear they are very good. I mostly use the European suppliers but I have used K&K in the USA and they were great to deal with also.

I recently started my restoration so am I a little ahead of you. I was originally intending to have the body sandblasted but many advised against including my panel guy doing the work. The main reason they gave was because the sand (or beads) get everywhere and can be difficult to remove in tight places. They also recommend leaving the original protective material where it is difficult to remove it. Reason being - it is doing it's job well and should therefore remain. My paint, etc, is being mechanically and chemically removed where needed. I have a lot a rust in the front so we are thinking we may get that sandblasted.

It is also said you can expect 3 times the rust you can see - in my case that would be 6 times.

Almost all rubber should be replaced and all hoses and most seals should be original parts. Most of the reproductions just don't fit right and are a bit NQR generally.

You are definitely looking at 'Months' so you need to learn to be patient - I am allowing a year for mine and wouldn't be surprised if it is longer (no, Im not doing the work myself but I am managing it closely.). Im using a series of smaller vendors to do the work who I can trust - but it also means they move on to other projects when mine is stalled, etc.

The cost is a difficult question - in the USA you have more options and can do things at a lower cost than we can, but I still think a total restoration would run to US$100K - $150K. You can certainly spend more than that ......or a lot less if you are handy yourself and only do what is absolutely needed.

Good luck with it - love to see the photo's

Rob

[Pinder]

Id have to agree with avoiding sandblasting.  Also the aluminum panels are softer and can be damaged easily. Ive used stripping disks on a previous car with amazing results.  Good luck with the restoration. Take picks of the process if you can.
I am working on mine I bought a few months ago, Working on engine Rebuild right now but will be doing new paint too. My car was originally Ivory but former owner painted in Red probably in the 80s. Ill be stripping all that off and doing 2 coats epoxy primer, several of high build primer , block sand then either base coat clear system or 2k single stage.

[ChrisInNashville]

Good feedback.   Thank you!  One of my struggles will be "where do a draw the line?"   Perfection is nice, but there's a diminishing return on achieving it. To me, mechanical takes priority, but there are a million cosmetic details that make the difference between good and great.

[Jonny B]

One question to ponder in conjunction with the "where to draw the line" is how you plan to use the car when you are done. If you want to actually drive it (!!) then striving for perfection in restoration and the dollars perfection will cost (there is a Pagoda in our area that the owner spent upwards of $250K on that gets driven into and out of its trailer) is not a good path. Perfection and use do not get along. But you can still get a very nice car, that you can use for the kinds of numbers already mentioned, or less if you can do some work.

Would also support the comment about using original equipment seals. The OEM hoses are not that much more expensive and will have the Star/MB logo; they work well and look good.

[wwheeler]

Another thing to think about is coatings. Black paint on mechanical parts are original but may not last as long for a driver than powder coating. Painted steel exhaust pipes are original but don't last forever like stainless would. Same for fuel and brake lines. So there can be a compromise between pure originality and durability. Again depends on how you use the car.

[hauser]

Here's a before and during removal of Ziebart only to expose the original undercoating.  A photo of the newly undercoated and ready for paint rear wheel well.

[Shvegel]

I used the theory that whatever took the most to redo would be the best quality I could muster.  My body will be as straight and perfect and everything on it will be done as correctly as possible.  You can always pull the engine one day in the future but taking everything back off a shell that wasn't done correctly would really be a nightmare.

[ChrisInNashville]

Thank you to all for the thoughts and PMs (while I recovered from surgery).  You have collectively broadened my frame of reference for this project.

[DickLewis]

Chris,

I have been restoring my 250SL for almost 2 years (next month).  Part of the delay was my fault as I said the famous words "I'm not in a hurray" in return for a lower fee.  Don't ever use those words.  My 250SL looked pretty good upon purchase and it was not until my paint man did the bare metal re-spray that we found all the hidden rust - no sandblasting here also.  Do not treat a small amount of rust as small.  The wheel wells &  the door rails can surprise almost anyone.  And it will take months to do it correctly.

Your real question should be how far due you intend to take your car?  I have taken it quite high and in return for that you need to be prepared to spend large sums to make things right.  I spent hours looking through this website at the paint section to make sure that all the different areas were painted according to the original specs.  I encourage you to do so as it is not simply taking it to the original moss green color.  And as others have pointed out once you start on the paint you will find it important to replace other items as you go through or you will be sorely disappointed in the end unless this is going to be simply a wonderful driver.  And remember there will always be the "might as well" items to consider.  When you have the car in a disassembled state it is much easier and less expensive to do other items.  As an example with all the gauges out I sent them for cleaning, new bezels, and re-calibration just as I did with the original Becker radio.  Then after much discussion I was convinced to buy the OEM exhaust system not the stainless ones as the OEM has a unique sound and is frankly "original".

I took my car back to the original DB304 Horizon Blue and it is now out of paint and being re-assembled before my total new leather interior is installed.  I have been working with Bud's on many of the parts and they have been wonderful and helpful.  Rusty has been my good friend for these last years.

As for costs --- as mentioned  -- it could go to the moon.  My paint job, again as a bare metal job, was taken to a very high level.  The undercarriage, the trunk, all the areas were painted according to the original specs.  My Cost was $29,000.  But it looks wonderful.  I am planning to take the car on the circuit to see how well it is respected once it is complete.  I will be happy to answer any other questions you have.  Hope this was helpful.   

AND look forward to a rewarding experience.  I have thoroughly enjoyed working with all my helpers.  It is so gratifying to see the Pagoda come back to life!!!!

Dick

[Pinder]

Dick, Sounds like you have a really nice car.  I am in the process or bringing back from the dead a1970 280SL stick shift that sat in a garage for 30 years. engine was lockeded up, Just rebuilt the engine (re bore and new pistons rings etc) plus detailed, I am in the process of painting the car.   Its been a fun journey but a long way from it actually firing up, I hink maybe anotther 3 months,  Right now im at the paint stathe of painting the engine bay while the engine is our, Winter is coming close so  if engine bay does not get painted next week  it wont hapend till spring,   Original color is Ivory so I ordered a gallon of that colour but I also love black cars and ordered a gallon of that, (couldnt cancel prior ordered ) so now have two possible colors, Still on the fence to keep original or go black,

[DickLewis]

Pinder,

I am in the camp of originality.  So that is what I would do.  My Pagoda will be delivered tomorrow at 9:30 AM to the interior folks who will install the new Parchment leather interior, the Black canvas roof, and the new headliner in the hard top.  I will be there to see the car come out of the carrier.  This is like giving birth -- I am very emotional about the whole process.  Once she is complete I will send some photos.  Please take time to take a breath and enjoy the journey.  I have never done this and in many respects when it is done I will have a void without the project.  To all who are reading this is a wonderful learning experience and I am thankful I have been able to do it.  Don't have fear about starting the process.  To all and Pinder --- happy travels and good luck.

[ahrma439]

Greetings,

I have just joined the forum because I am contemplating the purchase of a 1965 European market 230 SL. The car has not run in 10 years and has been stored outside in the upper Midwest for at least 5 years. It has 43K (original) kilometers according to the owner. The car seems to be complete and includes the hard top and at least the frame for the soft top. There are rust issues (surprise!) but the worst of it seems to be that the floors of the driver and passenger side are completely rotted. The frame seems to be sound and the trunk has only a small hole. The interior is ratty, but complete. Both fender have dents, but there is no other bad body damage. All of the glass is intact and the bright work is all there, but not all shiny.

My plan if I buy the car is to at least dismantle it myself and appraise the damage. I have some mechanical ability, but have never done body work or paint. Having said that, I am reasonably patient and would see this as a 5+ year project. I have a barn that I can use to store and work on the car.

To my unpracticed eye, the car is a bit above a parts car, but needs a great deal of work to put back on the road. I think the car is cheap enough ($5000) to justify buying. If it turns out to be way more than I can handle, I suspect that I could part it out and double my money. However, I would much rather get it back on the road as I have always wanted a Grey SL with a red interior. ( The car is currently dirty white with a ratty tan interior).

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. If any one it interested, I can post pictures.

[Scottcorvette]

I'd like to see some pictures, it sounds in a similar condition to my car although I thought it was significantly better before I started taking scrapers to the bodywork.

The only advice I can give is buckle up, it's going to be a bumpy ride......

[star63]

Greetings,

I have just joined the forum because I am contemplating the purchase of a 1965 European market 230 SL. The car has not run in 10 years and has been stored outside in the upper Midwest for at least 5 years. It has 43K (original) kilometers according to the owner. The car seems to be complete and includes the hard top and at least the frame for the soft top. There are rust issues (surprise!) but the worst of it seems to be that the floors of the driver and passenger side are completely rotted. The frame seems to be sound and the trunk has only a small hole. The interior is ratty, but complete. Both fender have dents, but there is no other bad body damage. All of the glass is intact and the bright work is all there, but not all shiny.

My plan if I buy the car is to at least dismantle it myself and appraise the damage. I have some mechanical ability, but have never done body work or paint. Having said that, I am reasonably patient and would see this as a 5+ year project. I have a barn that I can use to store and work on the car.

To my unpracticed eye, the car is a bit above a parts car, but needs a great deal of work to put back on the road. I think the car is cheap enough ($5000) to justify buying. If it turns out to be way more than I can handle, I suspect that I could part it out and double my money. However, I would much rather get it back on the road as I have always wanted a Grey SL with a red interior. ( The car is currently dirty white with a ratty tan interior).

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. If any one it interested, I can post pictures.

$5000 for a complete car is a bargain. I would not worry about rotten floor panels or a trunk floor. Those are among the easiest to replace. Unfortunately, you were extremely lucky if that would be it. An upper Midwest car stored outside sounds like one serious rebuild and a lot of body work. Patience for a 5+ year project indicates a healthy attitude. It may be worth it if you take it as a hobby and learn how to to weld (that's what I did...). Otherwise, I would think it over one more time. Good luck, what ever you choose to do!
...and everybody looves pictures!

[DickLewis]

Bud's Benz has been super with me.  I have been buying parts and getting help from them for over 2 years.  I have not had them work on the car but they are honest in their recommendations.  For example they will kindly tell you whether an OEM part or a repro part really fits.  Also as you work through the restoration items will simply pop up that you should do.  For example if you  have it all apart and the heater core needs attention you need to do it then since getting to it later is very time consuming.  I have worked with Rusty in the parts department and he knows me well.  You can mention my name and he will help you.  David runs a great shop and I do recommend them.

Just take your time and be prepared for surprises as I mentioned in an earlier comment.  Further as you find a part you need you should always do searches on Ebay Motors under parts.  You might be surprised at the NOS things that appear or parts that someone else  is parting out at prices far below OEM.

Good luck,

Dick

[Benz Dr.]

You can sand blast if you have the car all apart, you have a way to turn the car upside down, and you're willing to spend lots of time to blow out all of the places sand will collect once you're done. By all apart, I mean right down to the bare shell with everything removed.

 I would avoid blasting outer body panels and anything aluminium. The engine bay, underside of the car, trunk, wheel wells, etc. are all safe to hit and in some cases it may be a very effective way to remove rust. There are of course, other options, but this is one I wouldn't completely discount if the application suits the project at hand.     

[Pinder]

Price does sound like a good deal from your description.  i ordered a welder (flux core) and have become reasonably good with it. I recreated rusted out wheel arches on an old buick. Its time consuming but a good way to save. I have just purchased a 1969 280SL that has sat for probably 15 years. (purchased it with my brother). He has been working on getting the issues sorted out (seaized up throttle, no keys, fuel pump not working,). yesterday was the first big success as it fired up with some carb cleaner blown into the intake. Waiting on some parts for the fuel tank and rebuild kit for fuel pump.