Pagoda Group Grill Badge

[69280sl]

Quite apart from designing, manufacturing and distributing the badge, mounting it would not be easy. Our "radiator grill" panels don't lend themselves to a badge.
Gus

[Garry]

To add to Ray’s post, we are able to get four colours within a reasonable price and possibly 6 if needed so keep that in mind when doing art work.

Gus, those with front Rego plates are at an advantage, they go well on there.

Garry

[66andBlue]

Here are my two or actually four cents:
- I like very much Peter's idea that the emblem is awarded to Full Members. The voice of wisdom spoke and I fully subscribe to that proposal;
....

Hi Stan,
I know my eyesight isn't what it used to be but I have read and re-read Peter's reply #3 and cannot find this kernel of wisdom you are writing about.
What specifically did he suggest?
I am curious why full members should get an "award"!  

[Cees Klumper]

Maybe Stan is referring to reply #1.

When the club logo was decided upon, Bob Geco had also submitted a few design ideas that were quite nice as I recall. Due to computer changes since then (2002) I don,t think I have them anymore, but he might or other old hands on the first Board might.

[Peter van Es]

I think providing a grill badge to all Full Members is a bit of a risky idea. The logistics (as Michael Salemi pointed out) will be tough, the shipping costs high, and I reckon will go towards $20 per item out of the US. Rough estimate: that means $35 (the badge) x 700 + $5 shipping US x 400 + $20 (Shipping elsewhere) x 300 = $ 32500. Bang. Gone are all of our reserves in one fell swoop.

However, if you'd like to do this, feel free. Now all you need to do is find a volunteer.

Peter

[Garry]

I think we have gone off track. Ray and I were not inferring that each full member will be given a badge, I think what Stan was saying in his four cents worth on the idea was that the sales of the badge may or should be restricted to Full Members only at this point.
Garry

[Cees Klumper]

My suggestion wasn't that every full member receive a free badge, but only those who have been a member for at least X (could be 3, 5, ?) years and that, subsequently, those reaching that anniversary would also receive one in future years. That would probably cut down the number significantly below 700, in fact as low as one would want, just increase the number of prerequisite years. That way also those full members would benefit who contributed most to the club surplus as that has accumulated over the years.
But of course they can just be offered for sale, no freebies!

[W113SL]

As a follow up to what has already been disucssed:  As a former president of MBCA, I was honored to represent MBCA at the International  Presidents Meeting which is held in Stuttgart each each.

 While there, a major discussion ensued there in the appropriate use of the MB Star logo which is extremely well guarded by their legal people.
umi
We ,as an entitiy, are not officially recognized by MBCCI (Mecedes-Benz Classic Car Clubs International.  They, are in turn, funded by the MB Museum and include only four recognized Clubs in the USA:  MBCA, Intetnational 190SL Club, Gullwing Group and the M100 Group.  So we cannot use a badge similar to the Pagode badge, for they are officially recognized.

Perhaps due to the Interntational make up our our club, we can pursue offical recognition?

Here is their web portal: http://mercedes-benz-clubs.com/

W113SL

Pete Lesler


here is their web portal: 

[RonB]

Maybe we should put in for membership  to MBCA first.

[Cees Klumper]

Thanks Pete,

We've discussed possible recognition extensively with Mercedes. So far the answer has always been 'no' although it's never really clear why not and what the criteria are. In the end we don't need Mercedes for anything, it's just a 'nice to have'.

As an international club, applying for 'membership' with any national club such as MBCA or the UK MB club, would need to be seriously considered as that would take away, in my opinion, from our international foundations.

[66andBlue]

... As an international club, applying for 'membership' with any national club such as MBCA or the UK MB club, would need to be seriously considered as that would take away, in my opinion, from our international foundations.

Maybe we should put in for membership  to MBCA first.

I agree with Cees, joining MBCA as a subgroup would not serve our international interests. More importantly since we now have just incorporated this step would need to be reversed since we would fall under the jurisdiction of the MBCA by-laws.
I do believe that MBCA already has a W113 group but I do not know its current status.

Finally, those who absolutely must have a badge to decorate their cars really don't need our group they could simply buy this one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/291444207207
"Pagode SL-Club" is close enough to "SL113 Group",  don't you think? 

[mdsalemi]

...joining MBCA as a subgroup would not serve our international interests. More importantly since we now have just incorporated this step would need to be reversed since we would fall under the jurisdiction of the MBCA by-laws.

It's all moot since it has been discussed and dismissed. BUT to set the record straight, there are 80+ section of the MBCA, and each section is its own (or at least most of them are) corporation with its own set of bylaws.
As for international, that's as nebulous as the often raised issue of "conflict of interest" in various schemes that people bring up here. There ARE international sections (outside the USA) of the MBCA, including several in Canada.. There was one in the Caribbean once, but I believe that disbanded...

But the group we have doesn't really need much affiliation (either with DBAG, MBCA or any other entity) since, I believe, its goals are being met...right? We have members, money, organization, interest and everything else that a successful organization or club needs.

[UJJ]

I fully agree with Michael. Well said.
Urban

[ejboyd5]

Joining MBCA would be like buying passage on the Titanic. This group has a strong identity and name recognition of its own - affiliation is neither needed nor desirable.

[W113SL]

I neither endorse nor reject the premise of our origanization joining MBCA.

 There was an effort to start special subgroups some years ago, without a specific geographic location for organizations such as us.  In other words an "at large"  group.

The situation is presently: Some of us would need to join MBCA at the full fee unless there could be a lower fee negotoated since we would lack a specific section affiliation

I will be attendingt the MBCA  Spring National Board meeting via teleconference May30.  If you woud lke for me to explore this I would be willing to test the water sto see if this even makes sense.

W113SL

Pete Lesler
ds i willin belhalf of SL.ORG.

W13SL

Pete Leslers

[Panzer82]

We've discussed possible recognition extensively with Mercedes. So far the answer has always been 'no' although it's never really clear why not and what the criteria are. In the end we don't need Mercedes for anything, it's just a 'nice to have'.

Whatever this MBCCI is... besides another layer of bureaucracy... seems CRAZY that there is an M100 group and no W113 group. Why would MB possibly want to throw up barriers to groups like ours (can't show the front of the car w/ star in grille for fear of legal action) that keep the passion and spirit of Mercedes cars alive and in front of the public? Puh-leez.

My guess is that if the right people are contacted and the stats of this group's membership (numbers, countries, international reach, etc.) are conveyed, they'd have no problem giving us an 'official group' blessing. Now more than ever considering Pagodas are, finally, achieving widespread recognition as real collector cars... proven with multiple articles in the automotive / collector car press over the past 18 months, big money results at high profile auctions around the world, etc.

Seems like a no brainer.

[Cees Klumper]

Seemed like a no-brainer to me as well, but there you have it. MB has a one country, one club policy, at least had, and that was the official reason for keeping us out for some time. At the same time though, they were recognizing other MB type clubs in Germany. Go figure. When I challenged them on this, I never got any response. Someone close to the organization told me once they don't know how to deal with a truly international club like ours, we may be the only one, and they're used to thinking about the world in a country structure, which is how their distribution network is organized, country by country.
But maybe better to get back on topic ...

[Rolf-Dieter ✝︎]

I cannot understand why Mercedes would not recognize our Pagoda SL Group. Fine we are international, Mercedes cars are sold all over the world. Perhaps Dieter has to have a Heart to Heart talk with Dieter Zetsche I'm 16 years his senior and I was born in Germany, he was not, so I our rank him on those two counts anyway LOL  Ah never mind we have a much nicer group anyway

I better get back to topic ... count me in for one ... if the group order is a go.

[Raymond]

This discussion has gotten WAAAYYY off track.  As a reminder, very recently your Board inquired about official standing with DBAG and we were declined.  So let's put all discussion of that and affiliation with MBCA aside.  Just know that we cannot use the Mercedes Logo. 

The photo in our current emblem has been publicly in use for so long that it would be easy to argue that any enforcement of copyright has been waived through inaction.  I just don't want us to go there. 

SO, let's start fresh. 

We should be able to develop a real, completely legal, logo for our independent group that we will be proud to show on cars, on a wall, on a mantle.  It's up to the buyer.  If we do this at all, it will be for cost or perhaps below with a slight subsidy.  So quit kvetching and start sketching!     I'm looking forward to seeing some creative ideas.

[66andBlue]

Here is my sketch, there is nothing better than honoring tradition and keeping your logo consistent, seriously!  

  

[Flyair]

Alfred,

Your artwork has certainly has the advantage of following Ray's prescription: quit kvetching and start sketching!

In any case, one of the comments to my earlier post that our logo used so far is too detailed and will be unreadable from a distance is not serious one. Our red Pagoda is very recognisable. As for the Club's name it is very long anyhow...

The only easier detail I could think of is the MB star, but that's another well known story. If we cannot use it, than what else?

[mdsalemi]

Here is my sketch, there is nothing better than honoring tradition and keeping your logo consistent, seriously!  

Your artwork has certainly has the advantage of following Ray's prescription: quit kvetching and start sketching!

This has already been discussed off line. First, we (the group here) does not own the rights to that photograph, to the best of my knowledge. Thus use of that photo as it is, or even as a posterized, flat color version, couldn't be done without seeking permission of the copyright owner. This is why President Ray Hays has thrown the option open for something new.

For a badge, you are pretty much limited to the use of flat colors, not continuous colors of a photograph. So, for one of the badge production methods, you are limited to four (4) flat colors, unless you pay for more.

The existing logo could be posterized--turned into flat color--but that doesn't change the copyright issue.

[66andBlue]

...Thus use of that photo as it is, or even as a posterized, flat color version, couldn't be done without seeking permission of the copyright owner. ...

So who is the copyright owner? The photographer, Daimler, the owner of the car?  The photo is in the public domain now.
However, since the owner of the car is one of our full members here it is easy for us to ask whether we can use the image of his car, or even shoot a new one.

[mdsalemi]

So who is the copyright owner? The photographer, Daimler, the owner of the car?  The photo is in the public domain now.

I'm pretty sure that DBAG is the owner of the photo that appears on our existing "logo". Originally, it would be the photographer and then it might be sold or assigned, such as if the photographer was paid by some agency or corporation. One should not assume that just because a photo has been widely published or publicized, that it's in the public domain.The internet has made somewhat of a mockery of DRM (digital rights management) but availability, publishing, etc. doesn't necessarily mean one can use the photo--even if the photo were used as an inspiration for something similar.

To be specific, that photo is photo number: U17265 on the Daimler Global Media Site. That media site contains a notice that all the text, images, graphics, sound files, animation files, video files and their arrangement on Daimler Internet sites are all subject to Copyright and other intellectual property protection. These objects may not be copied for commercial use or distribution, nor may these objects be modified or reposted to Web sites other than for editorial purposes. It's quite likely that if one sought permission to use this, it may be granted. Why not just start with something new and call it our own?

Nobody says you'd have to give up your window sticker!

[ctaylor738]

Has anyone noticed that we should be talking about a "grille badge," or was this something we would mount on our barbecues?

Cheers,

CT