Author Topic: 280sl Value Deduction for California Coupe without Soft Top?  (Read 11460 times)

vande17941

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280sl Value Deduction for California Coupe without Soft Top?
« on: February 21, 2015, 20:14:17 »
With a condition 3, driver-quality 280sl going for an average of $55k in the USA, I' wondering what each of you would deduct for the car being a California coupe without soft. Everyone I speak with, says they would value the car much less themselves. I'm thinking a 10% deduction. Opinions?
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georgem

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Re: 280sl Value Deduction for California Coupe without Soft Top?
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2015, 21:38:35 »
My understanding of a Cal Coupe is that they were built not to have a soft top - the top compartment and soft top were sacrificed for the back seat. I assume the HARDTOP was standard. Now, if the car doesn't have a hardtop, start deducting, unless you live somewhere where it never rains or gets too hot..............

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Panzer82

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Re: 280sl Value Deduction for California Coupe without Soft Top?
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2015, 23:34:02 »
georgem is correct. What we generally refer to as a "California Coupe" has no soft top, top bow / frame mechanism, no rear 'top well' to store a top in folded down position, or the hinged 'cover' that goes over the soft 'top well' of a normal roadster. There is no provision to easily add a soft top to a CA Coupe. Instead, it has a back seat (for extremely small people, with even smaller legs).

A couple of photos here show a normal roadster with folding soft top (green car - two different green cars actually)... the other photo shows the rear seat of a parchment interior CA Coupe, taken with the hard top on... it's the best I had.

A true CA coupe is as described above, with a back seat / no provision for a folding soft top. I've seen a couple of true 'soft top delete' cars though too... they have everything you see in the photos of the green cars pictured, except the soft top and frame (which you can't see in the photos, as the top was all the way forward with back window folded towards the front when the photos were taken). If you have one of those, it's fairly easy to buy a top frame and soft top and install it. A friend of mine is currently restoring a 230SL and that's been his dilemma. He thought he had a CA coupe, but when I saw regular parcel shelf in the back instead of a rear seat and the 'top well' and hard folding cover were there, and after confirming with the build card, we realized it was a car that was just ordered without a soft top. Not sure how common that is.. it's the first one I've ever seen. He's since sourced a frame (almost $2500, well used) and will be getting a soft top for it too.

Value... It's hard to say, as everything seems to be changing so quickly these days and prices range greatly. All things being equal, I would think a 10% deduction is low... it may be more about just finding someone who wants one more than value. I think they take a bigger 'desirability' beating in the U.S. than in Europe. The European folks can chime in here. Whenever I see them on the market here in the U.S. they tend to languish for a while and don't seem to be snapped up real quickly, but that's my anecdotal thought, I've never put a calendar to it.

Personally, I prefer the look of the W113 with the hard top on and I don't like to be out in the Summer sun so much, I simply can't drive on Summer days with the top down after an unfortunate case of heat exhaustion a few years ago... so, I often leave my hard top on all the time, so a CA coupe would probably suit me fine. I think I'm a rare case, most people looking for Pagodas that I talk to won't even want to entertain the idea, no interest, no matter the price. The photo of the CA coupe here is a car I looked at in Kansas last Winter, a 280SL. I ultimately passed due to condition and other factors... non original color color change for one. It was offered to me in the high twenties. I learned that it recently sold on eBay, within the past few months for high $30,000s. Oh what a difference a year makes.

Shvegel

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Re: 280sl Value Deduction for California Coupe without Soft Top?
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2015, 23:48:14 »
I'm thinking more like 10,000USD on a number three car and much more as the condition gets better.  A solid 20 percent.

vande17941

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Re: 280sl Value Deduction for California Coupe without Soft Top?
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2015, 03:09:40 »
I agree...definitely not a car that anyone in the US would want for a bolt-off restoration.  So a value hit has to be sizable because of desirability. I cant imagine anyone, if given the voice, would choose the CA coupe over a roadster/coupe. The rear seat is worthless, and while sitting sideways, a death trap. Can you imagine three people in a w113? A small front-ender and the front-seat passenger and rear occupant's heads would slam together like two bowling balls.
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1986 560sl Cabernet & Palomino (not recommended)

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RCS Coupe

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Re: 280sl Value Deduction for California Coupe without Soft Top?
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2015, 16:41:34 »
I have owned my 1967 250SL "California Coupe" since the fall of 1985. I find it suits me fine. Starting in 2002, even though it was an unmolested original still in factory paint, nose-to-tail, I undertook a full disassembly, nut-and-bolt restoration that took 5 years to complete. At the outset, the plan was to convert it to a standard roaster with folding top, and I had all of the parts to that. In the end, I chose to restore the car as a coupe.

Structurally, the coupe is the same as roadster. The mounting points for the folding top are there under the side panels. (see attached photo) The compartment that the top stows in is just sheet metal spot-welded in. I had mounted a folding top in my car already for test. In fact, there are several coupes that I know of with folding tops mounted. With the top down, the back of the back seat has to be folded down to make room. In the day, M-B offered a complete conversion kit, coupe to roaster, as a single M-B part number.

66andBlue

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Re: 280sl Value Deduction for California Coupe without Soft Top?
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2015, 17:49:43 »
......In the day, M-B offered a complete conversion kit, coupe to roaster, as a single M-B part number.
Very interesting .. do you happen to know this part number?
Alfred
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Re: 280sl Value Deduction for California Coupe without Soft Top?
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2015, 18:10:28 »
Figuring that all the parts to convert would be 10K or more you can expect to pay 20% less. If you really want a coupe then price is a smaller consideration.
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Re: 280sl Value Deduction for California Coupe without Soft Top?
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2015, 02:58:17 »
From the 1968 edition of the Mercedes-Benz 230 - 250SL parts book, Part number 113 770 04 01 has the following description: "Folding top assembly - total range of delivery, for subsequent conversion from Coupe to Roadster. "

Raymond

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Re: 280sl Value Deduction for California Coupe without Soft Top?
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2015, 18:26:01 »
As an owner of a coupe, I feel compelled to defend the model.  The choice of a car that got its name from the shape of the hardtop can be a deliberate personal preference.  While I did not do a "bolt off" restoration, I did go to bare metal.  I have a BMW convertible as well and for a long road trip, the Pagoda coupe is more comfortable just because there is so much less wind noise.  Unlike the convertible, no low life *!*!*!* has cut through the rear window to steal my lady's computer bag.  The folded down rear seat provides a flat platform with a lot of room for the stuff you want to take on a road trip.  Only occasionally do I go anywhere with the lid removed but I can.  Here in Florida, where an air conditioner is a nearly mandatory feature for a car, the hardtop cools more easily and retains heat better in the winter.  It is true that the rear seat is quite nearly useless behind the driver, but with the passenger seat forward, someone 6 feet or under can easily sit back there.  As for crashworthiness, it's still a product of the 1960's. 

All that said, no, the coupes do not bring the value of the roadster/coupes but the smile on my face when I'm driving it is just as big as anyone's.   I love the car and the value is irrelevant because it isn't for sale.
Ray
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66andBlue

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Re: 280sl Value Deduction for California Coupe without Soft Top?
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2015, 19:11:32 »
From the 1968 edition of the Mercedes-Benz 230 - 250SL parts book, Part number 113 770 04 01 has the following description: "Folding top assembly - total range of delivery, for subsequent conversion from Coupe to Roadster. "
The p/n description is quite correct but I am afraid your interpretation of what it means is not. Note the footnote in the EPC: Not For Use With Rear Seat Bench
What one received with this part number was a complete folding top, that is the frame together with the installed fabric, that could be dropped into an existing compartment for the soft top.
We call a "California coupe" a coupe ordered with option code 417, see: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/DataCard/OptionCodes, that had a simple parcel shelf instead of the compartment. It was often ordered together with option code 566.  Thus this coupe version does not have the soft top compartment and there was no sheet metal kit (also including a new compartment lid) available from Mercedes to convert it back to a regular coupe without code 417, or into a roadster.  A Roadster in Mercedes parlance is a car with a soft top (up or down) without a hardtop, also known as a Convertible.
Gernold at SL-Tech offers a "Convertible top compartment complete for California Model Conversion" that he cuts out of salvaged roadsters and welds together: http://www.sltechw113.com/parts.html
« Last Edit: March 21, 2015, 04:59:47 by 66andBlue »
Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
1966 230SL automatic 334G light blue (sold)
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Re: 280sl Value Deduction for California Coupe without Soft Top?
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2015, 19:47:54 »
The p/n description is quite correct but I am afraid your interpretation of what it means is not.
What one received with this part number was a complete folding top, that is the frame together with the installed fabric, that could be dropped into an existing compartment for the soft top.
We call a "California coupe" a coupe ordered with option code 417, see: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/DataCard/OptionCodes, that had a simple parcel shelf instead of the compartment. It was often ordered together with option code 566.  Thus this coupe version does not have the soft top compartment and there was no sheet metal kit (also including a new compartment lid) available from Mercedes to convert it back to a regular coupe without code 417, or into a roadster.  A Roadster in Mercedes parlance is a car with a soft top (up or down) without a hardtop, also known as a Convertible.
Gernold at SL-Tech offers a "Convertible top compartment complete for California Model Conversion" that he cuts out of salvaged roadsters and welds together: http://www.sltechw113.com/parts.html
Option code "417" was a mounted hardtop and a folding rear bench seat instead of a soft top. True, the folding top compartment was not there, but the mounting points for a folding top are (see the picture I attached above),. Many owners of 417 Coupes have done just that, including me for a short period. Gernold had a coupe with a folding top bolted in at his shop a few years ago. The welded-in top compartment and closing panel are not necessary.
I have a neighbor with a '62 190SL that does not have a folding top, only a removable hard top. He bought it that way, new, in Europe. Can you imagine a Cadillac delivered that way?
Ray

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Re: 280sl Value Deduction for California Coupe without Soft Top?
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2015, 19:55:18 »
Redux: for pictures of the rear bench seat and a soft top installed in a CA Coupe, go to Technical Manual, Option Codes, and scroll down to "417"

Ray

vande17941

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Re: 280sl Value Deduction for California Coupe without Soft Top?
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2015, 02:05:31 »
Back to the value question...researching the market now shows they are definitely worth less monetarily. ...well over 10%. It looks like the parts alone to convert are over $10k ( not including labor). Plus, I think people have realised, in today's world, the rear seat is absolutely worthless and dangerous. Having a top for  unexpected rain showers is a nice option (sunny summer days sometimes turn into rainy thunderstorms). I just passed on an otherwise nice red 280sl because I just "didn't want" what I knew would always be "something I settled for". These posts have really given all-the-info. Thanks everyone.
'66 USA (1967 model Year) 230sl, 4-speed Manual, Driven Like a Real Car! Set up with KYB Stiffer Shocks, and Motor Mounts w Urethane Inserts Underneath, 3-point Belts, Headrests Installed 🚗

1986 560sl Cabernet & Palomino (not recommended)

2001 SLK320 Sport AMG Silver & Black

Panzer82

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Re: 280sl Value Deduction for California Coupe without Soft Top?
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2015, 03:23:44 »
vande17941: They aren't for everyone and if you want the option of a folding soft top you made a good choice.... but to Raymond's point, about defending the model... which I don't think he has to do... it's all just a matter of taste. As long as it's desirable to the guy who owns it, that's really all that matters. I do think the W113 looks best with the hard top fixed, period. Plus, it seems like such a crime to leave a nice soft top all scrunched up in the top well when the hard top is on. So many hard tops just hang from ceilings and never end up on the cars... that seems a shame too. I guess you need one of each!

vande17941

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Re: 280sl Value Deduction for California Coupe without Soft Top?
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2015, 03:36:51 »
All of them are awesome!
'66 USA (1967 model Year) 230sl, 4-speed Manual, Driven Like a Real Car! Set up with KYB Stiffer Shocks, and Motor Mounts w Urethane Inserts Underneath, 3-point Belts, Headrests Installed 🚗

1986 560sl Cabernet & Palomino (not recommended)

2001 SLK320 Sport AMG Silver & Black

Shvegel

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Re: 280sl Value Deduction for California Coupe without Soft Top?
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2015, 13:19:21 »
Just to be clear to Raymond my intentions were in no way to disparage the California Coupe but only to state my opinion of value.  Any 113 or for that matter anyone who cares for a W113 enough to keep it running and at the very least try to make it better in at least some small way is OK by me.