Author Topic: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe or Members manifestos.  (Read 42231 times)

GGR

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #50 on: June 15, 2014, 01:43:40 »
Just to clarify: the article is about the rise of the far right in many countries in Europe which, by its associated nationalistic and protectionist discourse uses the European Union, a supranational entity, as a scape goat and blame it for all what is wrong in their eyes. This is leading to the rejection of the European Union by an increasing number of citizens of its member countries (and not by any other part of the world), as seen in the latest European elections.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2014, 18:35:27 by GGR »

GGR

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #51 on: July 24, 2014, 13:02:38 »
Unfortunately the last few days are showing us once again how the lack of political integration within the European Union makes it a political dwarf on the international scene. While Europe lost 200 of its citizens over the Ukrainian skies, Germans don't want to hear about energetic sanctions because it would hurt their economy, the French don't want to hear about military sanctions because it would hurt some contracts they have and the British don't want to hear about financial sanctions because it would hurt the City. While national governments are pointing fingers at each other, culprits go on undisturbed with their somber business after the appalling way they have been dealing with the victims. Fortunately, in the lot, the Dutch people are teaching us a lesson of dignity and humanity in the way they are welcoming back their lost loved ones.   
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 13:14:24 by GGR »

mdsalemi

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #52 on: July 24, 2014, 14:31:48 »
Unfortunately the last few days...the Dutch people are teaching us a lesson of dignity and humanity in the way they are welcoming back their lost loved ones.   

My thoughts exactly. As I read the papers this morning--WSJ, NYT and the Detroit News, aside from the local stuff in each, we have bombings in Africa, the Nigerian kidnapped schoolgirls all but forgotten, Boko Harum running amok, huge continuing issues in the middle east, massive issues in Ukraine…and it goes on and on.

Thankful to be here and safe…I think. :(

As for the Dutch, they know no other way besides dignified.
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DaveB

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #53 on: August 14, 2014, 22:32:11 »
I think the author intends EU when he writes Europe in this article, not its geographical boundaries, which can indeed lead to confusion. He is speaking of the rise of the far right in developed countries. But as you say, other places in the world do witness the same phenomenon. Recent elections in India also show a rise of conservatism there. And of course, all the islamist movements can also be seen as some form of populism / far right. It looks like a great part of the planet is facing the same issue, not only developed countries. The recent economic crisis can explain some of it. But I think there is more to it. I would be interested in reading some analysis about it.

Gael I have pondered this question on and off since you posed it. I am unfamiliar with the EU situation and cannot read that French article but my thinking went like this: humans seem to have an innate desire to work together for a common purpose, and also to organise into a hierarchy, leaders being "cult of personality" figures. So leaders can co-opt that communal desire to work together, either for good purposes or bad (good and bad being subjective terms of course). I have just come across an article that sets this out succinctly and even implies that it's amenable to simulation:

In episodes of crisis there is space for reorganization and innovation. Although that sounds attractive, there is a flip side to the coin. Uncertainty is high, control is weak and confused, and problems are often too complex to see clearly how they can be controlled. As discussed in Section 12.4, there is a niche for new "sense-making" in such complex situations of crisis, and a charismatic leader may cause the precipitation of confused feelings into a comprehensive new worldview. It is therefore a time when individuals have the greatest chance to influence events, and a time when not only a Gandhi but also a Hitler can shape the future. More generally, the often-heard opinion that "timing is crucial" in good management and politics may be seen as referring to the window of opportunity offered by the reorganization phase in the Hollings model.

This text is from Scheffer, M. (2009) Critical transitions in Nature and Society, Princeton University Press and the Hollings model is described in Gunderson, LH and Hollings, CS (2001) Panarchy: Understanding transformations in Human and Natural Systems, Island Press

So the far-right leaders are taking their opportunity to create a worldview that a disaffected populace can easily latch onto (for example the opinion expressed earlier that "our problems are due to infiltration of Europe and the US...").

How do we get out of this? Two things I think would be great would be 1) to have far more women running our societal systems and making policy, and 2) recognition that we are all citizens of the earth not just our own insular territories and nations - if only we could all have the astronauts view! 1 may be feasible, 2 perhaps not. Research showing that chimpanzees kill members of neighbouring tribes to acquire new territory (Mitani et al. 2010, Current Biology v20: p. 507-508) is sobering, although also from those authors "we are equally closely related to the other species of chimpanzee, the bonobo. The bonobo does not appear to engage in territorial behaviour and lethal coalitionary aggression."

Regarding point 2 I am very much drawn to Carl Sagan's quote about our pale blue dot:

From this distant vantage point, the Earth might not seem of any particular interest. But for us, it's different. Consider again that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.

The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that in glory and triumph they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner. How frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds. Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity – in all this vastness – there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves.

The Earth is the only world known, so far, to harbor life. There is nowhere else, at least in the near future, to which our species could migrate. Visit, yes. Settle, not yet. Like it or not, for the moment, the Earth is where we make our stand. It has been said that astronomy is a humbling and character-building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known.







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GGR

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #54 on: August 15, 2014, 02:05:53 »
Well, you are certainly bringing some interesting perspectives!

I'm quite familiar with the first concept you are bringing, as I have spent many years in war zones assisting civil populations. Most of nowadays conflicts are protracted crises. Passed the emergency response, the next step is usually to contribute towards addressing the root causes of the conflict, which is often quite a complicated matter. No two situations are similar, but some patterns are common. The sequence usually starts with a shock, which can be a natural disaster, an economic crisis etc. This leads to relative deprivation, which is the perception for an individual or a group that they are not living up to their expectations: the young generation may feel they are not doing as well as their parents, a social group may feel they are not doing as well as another group, etc. Relative deprivation leads to frustration which is a condition for mobilization. When people are happy they have no reason and do not feel the need to participate into a fight. On the other hand, frustrated people are much easier to get mobilized. The catalyst is often an opportunistic and charismatic leader. And the easiest way to mobilize people is to designate a culprit for the problems they are facing: it works much better than proposing viable solutions as they usually entail even more sacrifices. But this is also usually the point when things start becoming violent. First to get to power, and then to keep it. Nationalism (being at community, tribal or national level) is usually a tool commonly used in that kind of situation because it pumps up peoples ego (as belonging to the better group) as a response to the previously mentioned frustration. Belonging to the better group also entails that other groups are inferiors and responsible for the problems. This is quite convenient to keep people catalyzed and mask failures, or explain them while rejecting the responsibility on a third party.

Europe went through all that 70 years ago. Though History never repeats itself, some very worrying signs are appearing, and little by little, things that were unthinkable a few years ago are becoming common place. Racism is one of them. A few years ago it was shameful to express racist ideas or to act in a racist manner. People are now quite disinhibited  about it and are expressing it quite openly. Another one is the rise of the far right. These parties are now getting great backing and are political forces to be reckoned with.

More women in power? I'm not sure they would do better, but not worse either. And they are certainly under-represented in leadership positions.

Dealing more kindly with one another and preserving and cherish the pale blue dot? Certainly! But Neo-Malthusian thesis are gaining traction. In a perspective where the blue dot ends up being too populated, competition would be even fiercer and we are not about to see the end of nationalism!
   
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 02:36:54 by GGR »

66andBlue

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #55 on: August 15, 2014, 04:10:51 »
.... Certainly! But Neo-Malthusian thesis are gaining traction. In a perspective where the blue dot ends up being too populated, competition would be even fiercer and we are not about to see the end of nationalism!   
Not sure I get the point here. Are you lamenting the fact that Malthus' ideas are looked at again? And if so, that they are considered positive, or negative?  See:
http://www.thesocialcontract.com/artman2/publish/tsc0803/article_740.shtml
In any case I hope that the views expressed here (http://www.thebreakthrough.org/) are not becoming mainstream thinking.
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GGR

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #56 on: August 15, 2014, 11:26:32 »
Are you lamenting the fact that Malthus' ideas are looked at again? And if so, that they are considered positive, or negative? 

Like in any debate, I guess both sides have fair points and that's also true for the one on modern population. However, I have seen Malthusian ideas used to justify what was not really justifiable. I have worked on several conflicts opposing pastoral/nomadic to sedentary/agricultural communities where competition over resources (water and land) was quite fierce. In many occasions, power was held by the sedentary population and Malthusian ideas have been used to describe pastoral livelihoods as having reached their limits and not being able to sustain the growth of pastoral populations anymore. This led to policies forcing them to sedentarize, and land that had been used for pastoral purposes for generations has been turned into agricultural land. Basically, some interpretation of Malthusian ideas (pastoral livelihood is not viable anymore) has been used to justify the expansion of one side over the other one. Of course, this led to a lot of frustration which can explain in part the current situation in the Sahel. Bring in some opportunistic agenda like Islamism and you have what's happening now.

In Europe, we have also seen some questionalble interpretations of Malthusianism, with the Lebensraum where  territorial expansionism was considered as a law of nature for all healthy and vigorous peoples of superior races to displace people of inferior races; especially if the people of a superior race were facing overpopulation in their given territories. As such, peoples deemed to be part of inferior races living within territory selected to be Lebensraum were subject to expulsion or destruction.

Here, I'm not saying that Neo-Malthusians do not have some fair points. I'm saying that some interpretations of Malthusianism combined with nationalism can lead to humanly disastrous situations.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 13:11:30 by GGR »

DaveB

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #57 on: August 16, 2014, 22:00:52 »
You have a heavy job. You must have seen the very worst and the very best of people.
For a large, resource-hungry mammal, our population is indeed astonishing. It's also something of a juggernaut with a lot of momentum. I agree that more competition and conflict seems inevitable. It would be interesting to see what happens when the chimpanzee and the bonobo territories intersect but I have a feeling I don't want to know that.
No species lasts forever. Now, when we seem hell bent on proving that, perhaps it is time for us to package up the very best of art and design and send it into space so that something, somewhere, sometime understands what we achieved.
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66andBlue

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #58 on: August 17, 2014, 00:40:05 »
... I'm saying that some interpretations of Malthusianism combined with nationalism can lead to humanly disastrous situations.

Absolutely, but one should not blame this on Malthus or any other individual who thought about these problems, put them out for debate, modified them (or not), and provided the proverbial food-for-thought for the next generation of thinkers. People have used recent (after Malthus) phrases - "Volk ohne Raum" - or much earlier ones (before Malthus) - "In the name of God" - to justify their means and advance their agendas against other people.  Humans make war against themselves and against other species, just like any other species does. The difference is that humans have consciousness that for whatever evolutionary reason needs to be satisfied and in doing so creates another set of problems as Harding in his far-reaching 1968 essay "Tragedy of the Commons" (see: http://www.garretthardinsociety.org/ and http://www.sciencemag.org/site/feature/misc/webfeat/sotp/commons.xhtml) has delineated.

..... my thinking went like this: humans seem to have an innate desire to work together for a common purpose, and also to organise into a hierarchy, leaders being "cult of personality" figures. So leaders can co-opt that communal desire to work together, either for good purposes or bad (good and bad being subjective terms of course).  

Humans can easily be made to "feel good" or "do the right thing" and high on the list is charity.  It is one of most cherished endeavors here, whether it is performed because of tax brakes or to make it into the society pages does not matter, the question is, does it do any "good"?
Herschel Elliott, a philosophy and ethics professor at the University of Florida looked at this from a moral standpoint in "A General Statement of Hardin's Tragedy of the Commons".  He writes  ".. ethical behavior must be relative to its most important goal -- to protect and sustain the Earth's diverse yet mutually supporting system of living things. Thereafter the secondary goal of ethics may be addressed, namely, to maximize the quality of human life."  
From this he develops six postulates:
"Learning the effective means for controlling growth requires the repudiation of important causal misconceptions:
(6) Finally, the belief must be discarded that an ethics of good intentions, especially those intentions directed to filling individual or human needs, will automatically produce the good of the whole."


This last one is the most difficult to swallow for those who worship "altruism" in all forms and without consequences.
Most likely you both are aware of the life boat dilemma:
The 50 of us in the lifeboat - with a capacity of 60 - see a 100 others swimming in the water outside, asking for admission to the boat. How shall we respond to their calls?

Anyone ready to give up his place in the boat?

[PS: I can provide you with PDF reprints of the articles that I mention or those published in Science Magazine
and btw, David I really like your picture of the rocket-riding Pagoda!  :)]
« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 00:49:29 by 66andBlue »
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DaveB

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #59 on: August 17, 2014, 00:54:53 »
The 50 of us in the lifeboat - with a capacity of 60 - see a 100 others swimming in the water outside, asking for admission to the boat. How shall we respond to their calls?

You take 10 of the swimmers inside and tell the other 90 to huddle together and hang onto the ropes around the outside of the lifeboat (which are there for this purpose). Then you periodically bring some of the swimmers in, and let some of those inside take their turn on the ropes. This way we can all stay alive, perhaps long enough to be rescued.

I would like to see the articles thanks.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 04:11:41 by DaveB »
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66andBlue

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #60 on: August 17, 2014, 01:03:07 »
Oops, I forgot to mention that the life boat sits in shark-infested waters. But the sharks do appreciate it that you make it easier for them and line up their prey.  :D
The articles are on their way.
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GGR

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #61 on: August 17, 2014, 02:06:08 »
Dave, I'm not doing that job anymore. After several years I started having that strange feeling that I had been lucky too many times and that it was not going to last for ever. Those were indeed the most intense years of my life and I learned a lot. I miss it sometimes.

I'm optimistic. We will find solutions. Population is supposed to peak this century. Development and increased consumption across the world is surely going to bring challenges. But we can hope that progress, lifestyle evolution and common sense will keep the planet a nice place to be on for the foreseeable future.

Alfred, I agree that we live in a finite world, but I also think we did not explore all its potentialities yet. I also agree that many times trying to do good in an uninformed manner (and even sometimes in an informed one) can yield side effects that are worse than the initial problem. One of the first principles one learns in the job I was doing is the "do no harm" one. It is sometimes difficult to identify what is going to be harmful or not, in politically very loaded contexts for example. In last resort I had to stick to the humanitarian principles which are drawn from the Geneva conventions (The Wikipedia page gives a good overview of what they are: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanitarian_principles), even if there are some negative consequences, as long as the output is globally positive (and yes, sometimes doing nothing is better than doing something). Ethical issues appear everyday in an acute emergency situation, and they are not always dealt with in the same way. Contexts, people, means are different, actions and outcomes will also be different.

In your example, if the 50 guys are the developed world, the boat the resources, and the 100 guys the developing world, you have to realize that by denying someone access to resources in order to keep your lifestyle you are de facto giving that person the right to deny you the same thing. It can get ugly very quickly, with the long term advantage to the developing world as frustration will be on its side. In the end, you may loose more by engaging in a confrontational approach than in a collaborative one. Confrontation will be a negative sum game. Collaboration, with the help of progress, has most chances to be a positive sum one.

Having the boat overrun and sunk will be worse for everybody.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 02:17:07 by GGR »

66andBlue

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #62 on: August 17, 2014, 05:56:22 »
Having the boat overrun and sunk will be worse for everybody.
Gael,
absolutely correct!
At the risk of boring even more members here who stumble into this "way of topic" topic I want to emphasize that the life boat metaphor was  taken from Hardin. Here is his answer to the question he posed:
There are several possibilities.
One. We may be tempted to try to live by the Christian ideal of being "our brother's keeper," or by the Marxian ideal (Marx 1875) of "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." Since the needs of all are the same, we take all the needy into our boat, making a total of 150 in a boat with a capacity of 60. The boat is swamped, and everyone drowns. Complete justice, complete catastrophe.
Two. Since the boat has an unused excess capacity of 10, we admit just 10 more to it. This has the disadvantage of getting rid of the safety factor, for which action we will sooner or later pay dearly. Moreover, which 10 do we let in? "First come, first served?" The best 10? The neediest 10? How do we discriminate? And what do we say to the 90 who are excluded?
Three. Admit no more to the boat and preserve the small safety factor. Survival of the people in the lifeboat is then possible (though we shall have to be on our guard against boarding parties).
The last solution is abhorrent to many people. It is unjust, they say. Let us grant that it is.
"I feel guilty about my good luck," say some. The reply to this is simple: Get out and yield your place to others. Such a selfless action might satisfy the conscience of those who are addicted to guilt but it would not change the ethics of the lifeboat. The needy person to whom a guilt-addict yields his place will not himself feel guilty about his sudden good luck. (If he did he would not climb aboard.) The net result of conscience-stricken people relinquishing their unjustly held positions is the elimination of their kind of conscience from the lifeboat. The lifeboat, as it were, purifies itself of guilt. The ethics of the lifeboat persist, unchanged by such momentary aberrations.


Quote
I'm optimistic. We will find solutions. Population is supposed to peak this century.

Perhaps. But consider when WW1 started there were 1.8 billion of us and that was dense enough to have an influence on the start of that war. Now we have about 7.2 billion brethren and the prediction is that perhaps another 3-4 billion will be added by 2050 (http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/), way more than those who felt in 1914 that their neighbors were too close and were breathing down their necks. Or in your words, we will have a lot more people who now have the right (!) to deny us our lifestyle because their parents had no problems with their desires to procreate more than they and the earth can afford!
No, overpopulation is the crux of the problem and little was and is done curb it.  
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GGR

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #63 on: August 17, 2014, 09:21:07 »
I wasn't aware that perceived overpopulation was one of the underlying reasons of WWI, but if so, the very fact that we are today 7.2 billion proves that the perception was wrong.

Depending on estimates, the planet's carrying capacity ranges between 4 and 16 billion. A lot of the variations are due to the expected consumption level per capita and the contribution of expected technological progress. Population is estimated to peak at 10 to 11 billion and then start declining. So viability will be a question of keeping average consumption per capita to a sustainable level. This may entail controlling the rise in consumption in developing countries and adjusting it in the developed ones.   

Demographic transition happens when a society reaches a certain level of development (and family planning is part of it, so I'm not saying nothing should be done about it). For the ones who are post-transition to call the other ones irresponsible while going on consuming way above what the planet can afford per capita in average is not very responsible either. Pointing at over population of others to preserve one's over-consumption is not going to work. And it is making my earlier point that we are not about to see the end of nationalism based on some Malthusian arguments.

The problem is global, and the solution has to be global. Reducing consumption, whether effective for some, or targeted for others, does not necessarily mean a reduction in quality of life (hey, modern MBs get better mileage, while being safer and more comfortable than our Pagodas!). This is where progress has to come in. The good news is that population is supposed to peak. So there is a point of balance somewhere. Now we - humans - have to decide if we reach it through a negative sum game or a positive sum one.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 14:27:30 by GGR »

GGR

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #64 on: August 17, 2014, 14:55:34 »
I was looking at some figures: the two countries with highest household final consumption expenditure per capita are the United Arab Emirates with $34,561 and the USA with $34,433. The quality of life index for these two countries are respectively 7.33 and 7.38 (out of 10).

The two countries with highest quality of life index are Switzerland and Austria with 8.22 and 8.12 and their household final consumption expenditure per capita are respectively $26.470 and $22.413.

So basically, by taking Austria as a model, it would be possible for people in the US to keep their quality of life index while reducing their consumption expenditure per capita up to $20.370 [(22.413/8.12)x7.38]. That is over 40% [(34,433-20,370)/34,433] reduction in consumption while keeping the same quality of life.  I know I'm being over-simplistic, but it still shows there is a lot of room for reducing consumption without necessarily reducing quality of life. There is even room to improve it while still reducing consumption, where bringing the American quality of life up to the Austrian one, which would be a 10% increase, could still be done while reducing consumption by 35%.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 21:44:19 by GGR »

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #65 on: August 17, 2014, 15:37:42 »
To GGR,

you are completely right. As a matter a fact when we look back when we were most happy, it is not the period with the most possessions. And at this moment we are more happy when we do things, then when we have things.
 Taking that in account I learned myself to have more free time to do things and getting rid of for instance the CLS 500 and so on. Much nicer life now. I will follow that road even more. Now that I am 50, I will get rid of a lot of other expensive habbits and just make sure I can work less and do more. Including big house with garden. Will go to appartment and will just travel half of the time.

Rudy

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #66 on: August 17, 2014, 21:04:59 »
'More life less possessions' is just the philosophy we need. Unfortunately a large proportion of our productivity and workforce are devoted to creating unnecessary possessions and there is a sophisticated and powerful marketing industry creating a demand for those possessions.

I believe, and many others have stated this I'm sure (Thoreau for a start) that many of our modern problems arise from our separation from nature. We have evolved grounded in nature, not only depending on it for sustenance but also aesthetic appreciation and satisfaction, and a constant delivery of life lessons (like the understanding that virtually every plant and animal conquers multiple challenges on a daily basis just to survive). So when a kid grows up without that, cocooned in a city, they have a hollow space that they don't comprehend. A perfect marketers target perhaps.

So are you sure you want to downsize from the garden Rudy? Although I guess you plan to make the world your garden, I wouldn't argue against that :)
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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #67 on: August 17, 2014, 22:41:30 »
Rudy, you are bringing the interesting philosophical debate on "to have" vs "to be". I did find a discussion on it in French: http://www.philomag.com/lepoque/dialogues/comte-sponville-viveret-bruckner-etre-ou-avoir-4566     Sorry, I couldn't find anything related in English through a quick search.

Dave, the discussion starts by saying that in our current capitalist world, the idea of happiness is targeted at consumption, which is rejoining your idea that powerful marketing is creating a demand for possessions.

An interesting way of reducing consumption without reducing quality of life is a shift from "have" towards "use", the idea behind the concept of sharing economy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharing_economy We're already doing it at our level on this forum, by exchanging tips on how best to keep our cars on the road in the most cost effective manner, selling to and buying from each-other used parts at a fraction of their price new, or passing on stuff to each other like that thingie to repaint hubcaps that has now embarked on a world tour. Some other enthusiasts organize themselves into groups and shared ownership/expenses to restore vintage airplanes. It's a way to do more with less. I would love to turn wrenches on a Ferrari 250 GTO and drive it for a fraction of its price. I already share a '72 BMW 3.0 CSI with a friend. This is the car I use when I go back to France on holydays. I'm getting the absolute best out of it for only half the cost. And knowing that my best friend owns the other half of it doesn't bother me at all. On the contrary, I'm happy to share it with him.


Garry

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Colin,

You started this. Your to blame.

 Next will be the manifestos on the Meaning of Life :D or have we already moved there. ::)
Garry Marks
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JamesL

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If Putin, IS, being in/near Gaza, continued nuclear meltdown from Fukushima doesn't get you, Ebola will!

And on that upbeat note... ???
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 14:47:31 by JamesL »
James L
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