Author Topic: Restoration Difficulty Level  (Read 892802 times)

Paul & Dolly

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1575 on: March 26, 2015, 09:01:00 »
Andy  Re Valuation.

I would think that after your recorded restoration your car should be top value,
maybe stickandrudderman can advise?
(over here it would cost you £40K for a good useable car, so I think your valuation is too low)

I think RHD cars, especially here in UK are of greater value than a LHD in Europe or US.
In UK the official Mercedes Benz Club have a valuation service, and a chief valuer.
It may be worth contacting them for advice,  as they should know what the UK members car values are like.

The secretary EMail is    catherine.barlow@mercedes-benz-club.co.uk

It may be worth contacting M-Benz clubs in UK/Australia/NZ for similar information.

There is an article on a complete Pagoda restoration in the current April issue

I enjoy your updates,
Keep well

Paul
Paul (located in Cardiff - Wales - UK)
1967 Early 250 SL (Auto) White
Mitsubishi i Car
Toyota RAV 4  Hybrid AWD
1936 Alvis Firebird (Gone............)

Garry

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1576 on: March 26, 2015, 12:10:26 »
Andy, I think you have to value it to locality as you cannot judge it to US or Europe or even UK as a RHD.  The exchange rates then further skew potential comparisons.

in Aust a decent driver sells (advertised may be more)) for between $60 - $80K  A really well sorted car that is in excellent shape will go for $100 - $130 with total restorations going for $120 to $150 and the odd one sold by commercial sellers getting more still but usually sold out of country.  I have mine insured for $125k. Maybe its a tad low but realistic.

We do not have the big variations between the models here like US, it all comes down to condition.  Drivers with a 280Sl maybe getting 5% - 10% at tops more. Concourse pretty much all even but at best 5% variation.

Offering for sale and actually selling can be quite a different price and vary as much as $30+k in the upper end.

Just my view of the recent actual sales, not asking price.

Garry
Garry Marks
Melbourne/ Kyneton, Brisbane. Australia
1969 MB 280SL 5 speed RHD SOLD.
1965 MB 230SL Auto RHD Lt Blue 334G, Top 350H, 213 Leather, Tourist Delivery.
1972 MB 280CE Auto RHD 906G Blue Grey
2005 MB A200.
2006 MB B200
2019 Izuzu DMax 4x4 with Slide-on camper.
2022 Volvo XC40 Twin Electric

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1577 on: March 26, 2015, 14:21:20 »
I ended up insuring the car for 120k NZD which works out to around 90k USD.  So in line with Garry.  I went for a 5000km policy which cost about 400 a year.  The insurance company have all my work so i got a fairly sizable discount.  I also went through all my existing policies and modifed all sorts of stuff which meant i pretty much reduced my overall premium to a point the pagoda was free.  So a good result.

needless to say if i totalled the car i think i would have a tough time trying to replace it for my nominated value.  You might get lucky and find one in similar condition but more than likely have to start the restoration process over.  I have absolutely no doubt that i will never be doing this again and can honestly say that at 120k the profit margin would probably work out to less than minimum wage once you have deducted the purchase and materials.  Its simply been a labor of love.

I think Garry is correct in his statement regarding locality as well.  If it were to be totalled the insurance company would more than likely investigate and pay out on local prices.  The highest i have heard a fully restored pagoda being sold for in NZ is around the 120k mark.. but that was a year ago.
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

Garry

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1578 on: March 26, 2015, 21:40:53 »
I totally agree with you Andy,

If I total my car I doubt I would be able to replace it at that price and even if I could it would take me 2-3 years to get it all up to scratch again.  The insurance company I have does a fixed price and I could probably increase it provided i have photos of all the work and even then it would be a struggle. What they will do though is sell me the wreck for a couple of grand so this is a good start and would probably be the saviour. I had heard that there had been a $200k one sold in Sydney but have not been able to confirm that.

Garry
Garry Marks
Melbourne/ Kyneton, Brisbane. Australia
1969 MB 280SL 5 speed RHD SOLD.
1965 MB 230SL Auto RHD Lt Blue 334G, Top 350H, 213 Leather, Tourist Delivery.
1972 MB 280CE Auto RHD 906G Blue Grey
2005 MB A200.
2006 MB B200
2019 Izuzu DMax 4x4 with Slide-on camper.
2022 Volvo XC40 Twin Electric

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1579 on: March 27, 2015, 18:35:15 »
A Challenge for everyone in here.  Identify the engine and the car its in from this photo.  Assume the engine is original.

Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1580 on: March 28, 2015, 00:38:46 »
Yesterday I received in the mail a dash pot for the accelerator linkage I order from Ebay.  The pot was specifically advertised as a 230sl unit.  http://www.ebay.com/itm/221715392972?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Taking it out of the box and comparing it side by side my damper it was instantly obvious it was the wrong one.

Before I went back to the vendor I decided to see if I could make it work.  The replacement pot had a shorter stud out the back by almost 20mm and the plunger pin is also shorter by about the same length.  So to make this fit in the 230sl bracket I needed to extend the bolt out the back.  So down I chug to the local hardware store.  The extra stud and nut are strangely both UNC.  Came home and cut down the bolt to the correct length and then screwed the dash and the new stud together against a nut.

Fitted it up and quickly discovered it simply wasn't going to work.  There is not enough adjustment in it now as the improvised nut now prevents the pot from moving.  Also because the dash pot has a much shorter plunge pin the unit must sit much closer to the linkages and comes extremely close.  If they ever interfered than the throttle could jam open which is an obvious safety hazard.  I am guessing that Mercedes got the supplier to lengthen the front pin for this exact reason.

Another example of being sent the wrong stuff and it consuming hours and hours of effort to put right.

Contacted the vendor and was told that I could make it fit by bending my bracket.  I sent an email back indicating that I didn't think that would work and restating that the item was not correct for a 230sl.  Was told in no certain uncertain terms that it was correct and that he had one installed in his  very own 1964 230sl.  A photo was provided.  The one I put up in my previous post.  To my eye it is not a 230 and looks more like a 280 engine.  The brackets and linkages are different and its got the plastic sleeve over the breather hoses.   All sorts of details that I don't recognize on my 127 engine.  Perhaps the late 127 engines were different.  I would be surprised.

I wrote back to the vendor and pointed this out.  I also asked him why if it was his own car, and he had to bend the bracket would he think that the part is correct.  I also asked him if he would provide another photo a bit zoomed out showing that it was indeed an early 230sl and also provide me with the VIN.  I have clearly told him that if he demonstrates to me that this part is in fact correct for any standard factory version of the 230sl I will happily go away and lick my wounds.  Other than statement like 'it is correct' no tangible evidence has been put on the table.  The more evidence I put on the table to prove my point of view just seems to be met with anger,accusation and denial.   

I tried before purchasing this to obtain the correct part through MB and was told its NLA.  I asked SLS and Buds and neither carried it.  It would seem that it incredibly rare.  I am now wondering if what has actually happened here is the vendor has procured some similar dash pots from another model or even brand of car thinking it might be ok without actually doing the due diligence to make sure.

The value that the vendor put on this part, and that I paid, reflects the rarity.  If this has been taking advantage off and something much more available but not quite right is being passed off then I am pissed.

The vendor has offered to take back the part but is not willing to pay for the shipping.  The fact he isn't even interested to investigate if he has got it wrong kind of tells me all I need to know.

I probably will end up trying to cut it up and carefully weld bits on it to make it work.  That annoys me because I paid a small ransom not to.

Interested in everyone's thoughts.




Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

GGR

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1581 on: March 28, 2015, 02:22:20 »
the part on the picture supplied by the vendor looks like your original one, not like the one he supplied to you.

The intake manifold on the picture supplied by the vendor looks like a "small" one, specific to US versions. I think they were only available on 280s. But I will let the experts confirm this as I'm not 100% sure.

paults1

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1582 on: March 28, 2015, 02:36:08 »
I had the same problem years ago. The one I ordered did not fit. I cleaned up my original dash pot and installed the spring and rubber boot from the new one. It works perfect to this day.

66andBlue

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1583 on: March 28, 2015, 03:18:29 »
Andy,
it is unfortunate that you may have missed this discussion and the photo with the dimensions of the dashpot it would have been clear that the advertised one is different:
http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=16057

I have the same problem at the moment and made a working one from two different ones. It is easy because you can pull out the front part with the spring and exchange it with a different one as shown. The Mopar p/n is J8127729 and I also spray painted the body of the Buick DV-60.
Furthermore, keep in mind that the threads on these dashpots are not metric!


Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
1966 230SL automatic 334G light blue (sold)
1968 280SL automatic (now 904G midnight blue)

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1584 on: March 28, 2015, 04:54:39 »
Thanks guys,  reading your comments and following up on your post has only served to further boil my blood.  Am a very principled chap who probably gets more wound up than I should but I just hate the feeling that I have been taken for a ride. 

Alfred your post in particular was very insightful.  It has led me to the origin of the part which seems to have been designed for an AMC Jeep.  I have found several references on the internet with identical part numbers and appearance to the one I have been supplied.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/OE-Mopar-Jeep-AMC-Carter-BBD-Dashpot-J8127729-/331231439316
https://www.carsandcarparts.net/ebpr/oe-mopar-jeep-amc-carter-bbd-dashpot-j8127729/331231439316/


However the price for the part I paid for seems significantly higher from my supplied at 79.99 down to 24.99 for the same one in a box labelled with AMC Jeep on it.

It didn't however come in the manufacturers box but was removed and supplied in another unbranded cardboard equivalent.  Strange that.

It was advertised as for a Mercedes 113 230sl and did not bare any reference or warning that it needed modification for it to be usable.

I don't know about you guys but this just smacks of a rip of gouge by someone who walks amongst us who I would expect to be a bit more accurate in his description of the part.

Perhaps I should just keep my mouth shut and go and advertise a whole bunch of my W108 parts as 113.  I mean some of them look kind of the same.

Absolutely levered.  I would like to invite the vendor to this discussion to explain.  Perhaps I have it all wrong.

Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1585 on: March 28, 2015, 05:16:02 »
Babak, will you please give me a full refund and also pay for the return shipping in advance.
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

Jowe

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1586 on: March 28, 2015, 07:29:55 »
How do I recognize a fault dashpot, i.e. when do I need to replace it?
Johan
04/1964 230SL, European, manual 4-sp, power steering, 050/050 white, black leather, Blaupunkt (SOLD)

Naj ✝︎

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1587 on: March 28, 2015, 07:41:51 »
A Challenge for everyone in here.  Identify the engine and the car its in from this photo.  Assume the engine is original.



Yes, that's a late 280 engine with a shorter squarer inlet manifold and the vacuum takeoff in the centre.

Naj
68 280SL

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1588 on: March 28, 2015, 07:47:34 »
Hi Jowe, when the internal diaphragm goes there is no resistance and there is no damping.  As the throttle linkage start to engage the dashpot the piston very slowly compresses over the last cm or so of travel and bring the linkage to a halt on its stop in a very slow and controlled manner.  If yours doesn't do this either its not adjusted correctly or is perished.  When its out of the car its obvious when you compress it with your fingers.

Naj, just reinforces what I thought.  Kind of obvious its not a 230 engine.  Would love for the vendor to join the conversation. 
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

Jordan

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1589 on: March 28, 2015, 11:32:48 »
Andy, I can certainly understand how it would roast your nuts after having spent so much time, money and energy getting your car into tip top shape only to be held back in the final stretch by a small part and an ornery vendor.  It's pretty obvious that if you have to bend a part in order to get something to fit that it is not the correct part.

I don't however understand why Benzrestorer (Babak) doesn't just take the part back and refund your money.  Doesn't make him look good to other potential customers like myself, even if he is charging twice what is probably a mopar or GM part (mine was for a Buick Lesabre).
« Last Edit: March 28, 2015, 11:37:02 by Jordan »
Marcus
66 230SL  Euro 4 speed

Paul & Dolly

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1590 on: March 28, 2015, 11:51:55 »
Andy,

Can you not use the EBay disputes mechanism to claim a refund for your expense ?

Good luck,

Paul
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andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1591 on: March 29, 2015, 03:39:28 »
Jordan it is driving me nuts.  I am very low on funds which really rubs salt into the wound.  I want a refund quickly so I can start on a hunt for a 'real' part.

Paul I have desperately tried to resolve this with the vendor.  No more than 14 emails to him.  I have put all my finding to him and begged him to give me some tangible evidence that he hasn't just done a swapparoo  on AMC part, which would never have any shot of fitting, and re branded it Mercedes and then hiked the price 300%.  Nadda.   From where I am sitting he either should pay up right away or put on the table some sort of explanation.  I don't care if it was a mistake it just need to be addressed from his side asap.  Some sort of apology would have been great.  Probably around email one or two.   

I have asked him to refund me today so I can get on with the replacement and he has demanded that I have to send it back to him before a refund can be made.  Another two weeks.  I have given him my word that if he refunds me now I will sort the shipping out for him (at his cost) in the next 24 hours.   Apparently my word is not good enough.  I am over it.

Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1592 on: March 29, 2015, 04:34:33 »
Vendor decided to refund.  Thank you.
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1593 on: March 30, 2015, 04:17:08 »
Today a parcel turned up from Jack at GAHH.  I had issues with the soft top they supplied which wasn't quite right for the 230sl and was really designed for the 280.  Jack immediately acknowledged the problem and sent over some instructions and the bits and pieces to make it fit a 230sl.  Hats off Jack and GAHH. 

Small things trip you up on these cars and you can spend hours in the detail.  Today epic was replacing two very unusual blind rivets that hold the front soft top spat to the webbing.  They were perfectly penned at the factory on both sides with no visible eyes.

I went to several upholstery and engineering shops this morning searching.  I gave up and purchase some aluminum blind and sealed rivets.  I knew they wouldn't look as good but will provide the same fixing ability.

They worked out quite well but required working the bulging side of the rivet with a hammer to flatten that side off.  I also followed up by gluing the spat to the webbing and also glued on the other side another off cut of the webbing effectively creating a pouch which should not only support the spat but also prevent and chaffing of the flattened rivet on the expensive soft top.

Tomorrow I will attempt the hard top fit.  Fingers crossed for some calm water.

Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

tel76

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1594 on: March 30, 2015, 07:51:04 »
Andy,
On top of the webbing sandwiched between the webbing and the soft top should be a length of approximately one inch wide elastic strapping (wide knicker elastic), it is fitted front to rear and is screwed to the frame with one screw only on each cross member, this stops the screws and the said rivet coming into contact with the soft top material.
Eric

mbzse

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1595 on: March 30, 2015, 08:40:35 »
Quote from: tel76
.../.. should be a length of approximately one inch wide elastic strapping (wide knicker elastic)
An important detail on the soft top frame, before fitting fabric. Often missed by [not-so meticulous] vendors, but is really useful. It serves to help fold the fabric easier and more neatly when storing the soft top. Note also, on Pagoda cars that have had their soft tops for several decades, the elastic properties of this strapping has of course degraded.
/Hans in Sweden
.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2015, 08:48:02 by mbzse »
/Hans S

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1596 on: March 30, 2015, 09:22:27 »
Thanks guys.  Any photos of this elastic.  As long as i can visualize it i will replicate it possible.
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

66andBlue

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1597 on: March 30, 2015, 17:05:38 »
Here is a photo that JamesH sent me when he did his top. Perhaps he has others showing the full length.
Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
1966 230SL automatic 334G light blue (sold)
1968 280SL automatic (now 904G midnight blue)

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1598 on: March 30, 2015, 17:28:34 »
That great thanks.  I can see that he has used the existing securing screws to hold the elastic.  I am a bit worried about using the ones i have got as they are tapered and trying to penetrate the extra thickness of the elastic may compromise the holding ability.  Last thing you would want is for these to let go when the top comes under tension.

I will try and source some slightly longer stainless screws.

ok so now i just need to know where the rear mounting point is.  I could take it all the way to the wooden bow.  I think Eric is indicating that its screwed to every bow from front to rear.  If this is the case how much tension between each bow?

i am also trying to get my mind around the exact purpose of this.  Is it just to give the top just that extra bit of reverse  tension so when the roof is cracked it will spring back that little bit easier.  

I cant imagine that after the top had been released that the elastic will have much effect after the tension has been released.  Perhaps this is the key to setting up the elastic.  Do you tension it with the the hood folded to a certain position so its effective from the extended position right back to where you tensioned it.

I am sure this is all obvious to those who have lived with this mechanism for some time.  But i unfortunately only have ever lifted my top once before i pulled it apart and i didn't take any notice of this detail.

I am starting to get the picture but am not fully there yet.  This is awesome stuff that's come just in time for me to put the hood on but is now frustratingly going to delay me again.  Good frustration though.  Definitely not going to glue down the top until i get this resolved.

So if anyone can shed some light on how to set this up I would very very grateful.  Will make a trip this morning to get some elastic.   Am assuming all elastic material is made equal.  Probably get to the sewing shop and be confused by 100 different variations!
« Last Edit: March 30, 2015, 17:38:24 by andyburns »
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

tel76

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1599 on: March 30, 2015, 19:38:39 »
 Andy,I have just done this task, I glued and screwed it to the front first using the centre screw then I moved to the next rail back (not the riveted one ) I used very moderate tension and inserted one screw (no glue, one screw as was fitted to the old elastic), I continued with each rail (using one screw) until I reached the rear one, as you know this is a floating rail, I pulled the rail to the rear manually and held it in place with one hand, tensioned the elastic( the elastic is folded over at the rear glued and both screws fitted) as this is difficult without another pair of hands I  only fitted one screw. I then went to the other side and did the same, when everything was correct and in position I placed a weight on the rear floating rail to hold it in tension, removed the single screw, refolded the elastic placing some glue between the elastic and the webbing (the webbing is also glued to the rail at this point but this was done when the webbing was fitted) and fitted both screws.
You do not need longer screws the original ones are ample.
I realise that it is a little late for you but if anyone is interested you can get the correct webbing from MB, they will tell you it is not available for the W113 but if you ask for the webbing as fitted to the R107 you will get the webbing you require.
Eric