Author Topic: Axle swap 4.08 to 3,46 - drums to discs  (Read 30169 times)

jameshoward

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Re: Axle swap 4.08 to 3,46 - drums to discs
« Reply #25 on: April 18, 2013, 18:20:02 »
Today was spent putting in the new brake lines for the conversion to discs from drums. What a pain that was. I've also plumped on where to drill the compensating valve.

Tomorrow will probably see me trying to put the axle together, noting GeorgeDes points about the sleeves that are an interference fit. Not looking forward to that.

Separately, after some great advice from Alfred, I have finally tracked down a supplier - actually they're making them for me - for the 90mm and 120mm 9mm wide clips tht secre the axle boot to the axle halves. I know the original lips are available, but I'm after stainless steel.

James Howard
1966 LHD 230SL

jameshoward

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Re: Axle swap 4.08 to 3,46 - drums to discs
« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2013, 20:49:30 »
Shorter day working on the car because I spent 3 hours driving around town trying to find a fine thread I think 14mm bolt to replace the original breather. Failed. What a bore. If anyone can advise on the proper specs for the bolt I'd be grateful. It's driving me mad. I've tried many and nothing fits. At this rate I think I'll have to weld up the original breather and make do. (I did get 75kg of play sand for the sand pit, and a tyre and rope for a swing. Much more fun).

I re-fitted the UJ with the long allen bolt. Learnt the hard way that I needed to jam the prop shaft flange to prevent it moving in order to get the 6.5 kgm needed to torque th thing down. I had locked off the axle half. Didnt work. I used stud lock (Loctite 270) on the bolt.

Thanks to Tom and having finally found job 35/5, I think I am about ready to put the axle together. I have found dry ice, but it's only available on Tuesdays. May try heat first. Tuesday's are bad. I think the order of washers-various is mostly cracked. Will post pics. 

I have modified a piece of broomstick to assist with fitting the washers. I got the idea having read 35/5. As the pin goes in, the idea is that the makeshift pin is displaced. I did a dry run today and it makes quite a difference.

Any tips on the breather issue would be great.

James
James Howard
1966 LHD 230SL

tel76

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Re: Axle swap 4.08 to 3,46 - drums to discs
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2013, 21:00:24 »
James,
If it is the adaptor that goes into the axle you want then a sump plug will do the trick.
Eric

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Re: Axle swap 4.08 to 3,46 - drums to discs
« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2013, 18:33:45 »
Thanks, Eric. Will look for one online, although one of the half shafts has to go to a machine shop to have a very well stuck in sheared wheel nut removed, and I may just ask them to knock something up for me.

Separately, I finally assembled the axle today. I didn't need dry ice, but did need to heat the sleeve to get it onto the pin. That worked perfectly. Thanks to Tom, I now have the washers in the correct order (I hope). Next steps are to put the brake lines on, then get ready to put the axle back into the car, and then stick the brakes on (I want to keep the weight of the axle down as much as possible so am going to leave off pretty much everything I can bar the compensating spring). I'm so glad I found 35/5, as it has some great tips on doing the work. Don't do this job without it (not that you'd need to, since it's now here, below). Needless to say, I'm wholly confused by the torque settings (35/0), which bear no resemblance to the descriptions of the parts in the chapters. So unnecessarily confusing, but maybe just me. MB must have had a whole dept of folk creating different names for the same part when it comes to describing the things to torque. Don't know why the couldn't use a diagram. Anyway, opted for "FT" in the most part and nothing has snapped thus far. Order of assembly from the circlip forward: large steel washer with curved shoulder, grooved brass washer (o-ring sits over the top of both), sleeve, thin steel compensating washer/shim sleeve, thin steel comp washer (o-rings sit over both) sleeve, grooved brass washer, thick steel washer (o-ring over both). Note that my original picture below is incorrect, as Tom pointed out. I had the washers in the wrong way around.

As per Dan's advice, I got the left hand axle tube level using a level (!) and then checked the carrier was at 90 degrees using a level, and set "distance 'a'" at the same time.
 
Yesterday I mounted the brake compensating value. The brake lines where a complete mission and a chronic PITA, but it's done now. On reflection, I should have used countersunk bolts, as I now have two bolt heads sticking up in the boot which will wear through my very old and possibly original boot mat. I'll make something to protect them.

For anyone else doing this job, I recommend using a piece of broomstick (or whatever) in order to build up the parts on the axle that is then displaced by the pivot pin when knocked through. It worked a treat.

JH
James Howard
1966 LHD 230SL

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Re: Axle swap 4.08 to 3,46 - drums to discs
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2013, 20:25:55 »
Hi James,
could not find it in your description but did you also replace the axle rubber mount?
This is what it looks like:  http://www.ebay.de/itm/221195823814
Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
1966 230SL automatic 334G light blue (sold)
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jameshoward

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Re: Axle swap 4.08 to 3,46 - drums to discs
« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2013, 20:51:19 »
Hi, Alfred,

Thanks for pointing that out. Yes, I did change that. Everything on the axle is new except the main bearing in the diff.

The old one on the axle I have removed - the 4,08 - is completely shot. The rubber has completely deteriorated.

The whole change is quite a big job, and very expensive in parts, but the additional costs for me are borne largely as a result of the change to discs. For those who already have discs its actually quite straight forward. So not complicated, really, just time consuming.

James
James Howard
1966 LHD 230SL

tel76

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Re: Axle swap 4.08 to 3,46 - drums to discs
« Reply #31 on: April 22, 2013, 08:00:54 »
Hello James,
Something is not correct with your assembly in pictures 2 and 3,the vertical mounting arm should not be so far back and does not have the rubber seal butt up against it.
When you install the axle and make and use the setting tool you will have to move the mounting arm forward to get it in the correct position.
Eric

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Re: Axle swap 4.08 to 3,46 - drums to discs
« Reply #32 on: April 22, 2013, 13:12:32 »
Panicked for a second, then, but realised that I'd taken the pics before I put in the clamping bolts, so at the point those pics were taken I hadn't set "distance 'a'" or put the arm at 90 degrees. So more recent pics would have been a better thing to post, but by then my 4 year old had visited and run off with the camera!

Separately, I'm just umming about reconnecting the axle and wondering if, just to make things easier, I connect one trailing arm without the spring, then connect the other putting the spring back in, and then - if you still follow me - undo the other arm and then replace the spring. I wondered if that wouuld stop things moving around quite as much as they have the potential to do when completing this work. Any thougths/top tips would be welcome.

James

James Howard
1966 LHD 230SL

tel76

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Re: Axle swap 4.08 to 3,46 - drums to discs
« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2013, 20:44:47 »
Have another look at picture number two, the O sealing ring should be at the other side of the bevelled washer.
Eric

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Re: Axle swap 4.08 to 3,46 - drums to discs
« Reply #34 on: April 23, 2013, 07:45:32 »
Since the breather fix only made it to this forum awhile after my axle swap was completed there are others who know more about it than I do, but I can tell you that it involves drilling into the left side axle housing through the 'flat spot' boss at twelve o'clock high, inboard near the pumpkin.  [This apparently was the original site for the breather, maybe moved to avoid road crud.]  It can be done with the axle assembled but is tricky and challenging - - to catch, contain and remove all the shavings generated by the drilling and tapping.  Ideally, should be done during a proactive disassembly for cleaning, inspection, bearing & seal replacement.  The fitting could be the one currently on your diff housing.  Benz Dr. gave us this solution and chose to use an older version of the vent fitting; I dunno why but he tends to have his reasons.  He may have been using this method for some time and might weigh in here to share.  I can't say enough good about this fix for the 'barfing axle' issue, though it came to light too late for me.  There are other remedies but this one is a great deal more elegant and, when installed during pre-installation servicing of the axle is also less hassle.  I think we're not yet completely sure that this is "IT", but it just ought to be.        
The mystery was compounded at the time by the fact that only ~ 15-20% of swapped axles 'barfed' out their lube.  I looked inside and out, checked different models, worried, read and bothered any number of experienced and expert folks about why this should be.  Finally -- I think it was posted here -- someone suggested that it may have been as simple as ~ 15-20% of the vents being clear and functional with the rest being sufficiently clogged as to prevent leakage.  And I haven't heard a better idea on that one either.  In fact, i think we haven't heard anything more about this problem since the Dr.'s solution was aired.  So yes, we're engaged in proving a negative here: still early days for certainty but seems to be going well.

While the factory U-pipe needs adaptor-bushings to mate to the axle, engine (and axle?) sump drain plugs screw right in and leave the site looking pretty tidy.  Sorry, no idea what plug fits the diff case vent location; my vent is still up there.

    
« Last Edit: April 23, 2013, 08:32:17 by pagoden »
1968/69 280SL, just+100k mi, manual 4, 3.46, both tops, 717/904

jameshoward

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Re: Axle swap 4.08 to 3,46 - drums to discs
« Reply #35 on: April 23, 2013, 20:28:22 »
Have another look at picture number two, the O sealing ring should be at the other side of the bevelled washer.

Eric,

Thanks. I realise that my photos don't help so I'm going to try to take them down and replace them. The second photo I realise isn't showing the the thick chamfered washer which would go to the right IDE go the grooved brass washer. The rubber o ring sits over the brass washer, as you know. I checked the car and although I was somewhat premature with th pics, the axle is at least correct. Very grateful for your keen eye!

Pagoden, thanks for posting the comment about the breather. In the initial post on this thread I made the point about getting a new hole for the breather on the flat spot you mention. That done, I moved the breather from the 4,08 axle - a small breather with a narrow and conical thread (obviating the need for an o ring, it seems) - to the new hole on the flat spot. The axle was flushed with kero, grease on the flutes of the drill bit, etc, to catch the swarf. The original breather (wider, but shorter) needs to go, but I'm still trying to find the right plug to replace it. I have blocked the breather holes with the oil drain plugs as previously discussed. I'll let folk know how that works. Thanks for your post.

James
James Howard
1966 LHD 230SL

pagoden

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Re: Axle swap 4.08 to 3,46 - drums to discs
« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2013, 08:09:33 »
You're very kind, James.  I apparently took off from the closing comment in your post #26.  Silly me...again.  Well, It's there for what use posterity may make of it. 
Interesting, the variety of breathers.  What thread did you find to accomodate the breather's taper?
 
1968/69 280SL, just+100k mi, manual 4, 3.46, both tops, 717/904

jameshoward

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Re: Axle swap 4.08 to 3,46 - drums to discs
« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2013, 08:52:40 »
You're very kind, James.  I apparently took off from the closing comment in your post #26.  Silly me...again.  Well, It's there for what use posterity may make of it. 
Interesting, the variety of breathers.  What thread did you find to accomodate the breather's taper?
 

Rather ashamedly, I have had to outsource three elements of this project. The first was to have the drilling and tapping done for the breather as I don't own a tap and die set, and a good quality one isn't cheap. I therefore do not know how they accomodated the tapered thread issue and probably won't ask! Second, due to a properly stuck and broken wheel bolt in the half-shaft, I got a local engineering firm to drill it out and re-tap it. Third, and because I have parts-fatigue, I asked them to find me a suitable bolt to replace the breather. As it turns out, they sent me an oil sump plug of French-car origin that will fit.

Separately, my custom made Norma type clips arrived yesterday. I'll post a pic if anyone is interested. I just hope I've measured correctly. At the same time my new brake hoses arrived (it's been 5 years since I last replaced them, so what the heck...). I think I now have everything ready to finish the job, except time.
James Howard
1966 LHD 230SL

jameshoward

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Re: Axle swap 4.08 to 3,46 - drums to discs
« Reply #38 on: May 05, 2013, 19:39:33 »
Well, it's been a while. Since my last update it's moved forwards and backwards. First, the major lesson having powder coated to axle is to really ensure that any powder coating is removed from anything that has anything bolted to it, through it or which fits onto anything, etc. almost all of the problems have been caused by the coating making things very hard to fit. Had a nightmare re-attaching the shocks, of all things. One got jammed half on, half off. In the end I had to remove the rubber bush from the steel sleeve and then press it back in. That was fun.

I have reconnected the trailing arms. I elected to reconnect one arm without the spring fitted in order to steady things, and fitted the spring to the other arm. I then went back the other arm and fitted that one. The cross strut was fitted last and the best way to do that seems to be to leave it completely unassembled and then assemble it with the axle in place. The prop shaft was then connected to the flange but not tightened behind the bearing at this stage.

Next steps are to build up the brakes and sort out the geometry. Then bleed the brakes, replace the coolant, and put the wheels back on.

James Howard
1966 LHD 230SL

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Re: Axle swap 4.08 to 3,46 - drums to discs
« Reply #39 on: May 05, 2013, 20:20:41 »
James,

I for one appreciate your detailed reports ... as painful as they probably are for you.  I have considered the Axel Swap as a future project ... I'm gonna have to think a little harder. 

Keep it up ...

250sl - later - manual
280sl - 1971 - Auto - LSD

Aslam

jameshoward

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Re: Axle swap 4.08 to 3,46 - drums to discs
« Reply #40 on: May 06, 2013, 05:06:42 »
Oz,

Don't be put off, I think, just by my experiences. Many of the problems I've faced were home made. Not all, but some. Plus, I'm fixing other things as I go, and putting wrong stuff right. A straight forward swap without being fussy, and without the chore of converting drums to discs would be really quite simple. It's the brakes element of this that has been the major expense and greatest hassle. Even things like replacing all the brake lines, whilst not technically difficult, is a colossal PITA.

I'll let you know if(!)/how it drives, and whether it's been worth it.

Hope all well in Paris. Spring has finally sprung Germany. .

JH
James Howard
1966 LHD 230SL

jameshoward

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Re: Axle swap 4.08 to 3,46 - drums to discs
« Reply #41 on: May 18, 2013, 20:12:48 »
Not a great day.

Been off the car for a while due to other priorities.

It seems that I have a got the wrong handbrake cables. The ones I have wont fit the damn handbrake lever at the wheel end. It seems that I need a cable that has just a metal loop at the end (as opposed to the U shaped set up I have). So, having checked SLS and the EPC I am very confused how SLS managed to provide a different cable.

Also, I'm confused about which cable goes to the left wheel and which to the right. One is slightly longer than the other but I can't figure out which goes where. Can anyone also advise on the routing of the handbrake cable. I assume it goes over the top of the exhaust but am not sure. If that is the case, I would have thought there would be some heat shielding.

If that wasn't bad enough, because I have a 230 with drums and have converted to discs, I needed to put the compensating valve in. As those with drums will know, there is a small 'T' valve (it isn't a valve)/union thing that splits the pressure from the front to rear line and passes it out to the two rear drums. This bolts onto a small bracket. Because the bracket is welded onto the car, I didn't want to try to remove it and so placed the compensating valve next to it. Annoyingly, this means that the stock set of brake hoses won't fit because the left rear hose is now too far away from the line to which it must connect. I need a longer hose. The front hoses will do it, but are way too long. So if anyone in Germany or the UK knows anyone who makes the things to a custom length, I'm in the market.

If I'd remembered to take my camera I'd post some photos. I'll do this tomorrow.

James
James Howard
1966 LHD 230SL

jameshoward

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Re: Axle swap 4.08 to 3,46 - drums to discs
« Reply #42 on: May 26, 2013, 20:33:25 »
Thanks to Naj, I have now managed to sort the brake part issue without having to get new brake cables. My cables have a clevis fitting, unlike the 113 cables, which don't. Naj found me the PN for alternative handbrake levers. The PNs are: 115 420 1189. You will need 2.  Cost €4.26 each.
You may need 2 roller pins 108 427 0074 @ €1.19 each. Worked a treat.

I now have all my Ate pads, shoes and discs and all are just about fitted. I need a torque wrench that will allow me to torque the trailing arms. Given the size of the socket, I need a step up to 3/4" and this makes it too wide to fit the inner bolts.

After that, it's a case of putting the exhaust back on, wheels on and then drop the car back down. After a bit of rocking about, I'll tighten up on the prop shaft at he large centre nut then stick her backside back in the air to do the alignment. I'll try the method mentioned here recently that avoids the use of the copper pipe contraption. Because I am now blessed with the dreaded circlip on the right axle half, I also need to sort that out by jacking the car to bring the tube to the horizontal. Then it's fill and bleed the brake system (have replaced all hoses as the others were 7 years old), then test drive.  :o




James Howard
1966 LHD 230SL

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Hand brake cable routing
« Reply #43 on: May 26, 2013, 22:21:38 »
Quote from: jameshoward
.../... Can anyone also advise on the routing of the handbrake cable. I assume it goes over the top of the exhaust but am not sure. If that is the case, I would have thought there would be some heat shielding
Yes, the right cable does run over the exhaust. To keep its sheathing from being fried there is a rubber ring which lifts the cable up, free from the top of the muffler. This rubber ring is attached to the side support. You can equally well use a cable tie to fulfil this task
/Hans in Sweden

.
/Hans S

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Re: Axle swap 4.08 to 3,46 - drums to discs
« Reply #44 on: May 27, 2013, 00:49:38 »
Here's what mbzse is talking about.
Tom Kizer
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jameshoward

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Re: Axle swap 4.08 to 3,46 - drums to discs
« Reply #45 on: May 27, 2013, 06:04:35 »
Thanks, guys. I have taken the cheaper cable tie route. I figured out the routing eventually, having paused to actually think. Ditto which cable goes on which side. My new cables didn't have identifying PNs on them. Probably obviously, the longer cable goes on the right axle.

I have some pics to post soon. Will get them uploaded at some point.
James Howard
1966 LHD 230SL

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Re: Axle swap 4.08 to 3,46 - drums to discs
« Reply #46 on: May 27, 2013, 22:48:10 »
Think Automotive in Isleworth will make stainless braided hoses to whatever length you require and for about the same price as the original ones.

jameshoward

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Re: Axle swap 4.08 to 3,46 - drums to discs
« Reply #47 on: November 01, 2013, 11:05:47 »
Just to close this thread...

I managed to install the rear axle a few months ago, but then had to go overseas. With the axle installed, I found I had an annoying clunk when driving. Investigation led me nowhere and because I had to go away again, I gave in and trailered it to a Pagoda specialist a few hours from me. By the time we got the car there, and test drove it with the mechanic, the clunk had gone. I couldn't replicate it at all. It could be that the car bounced around on the trailer so much that someone just went into place. No idea, but it was fine.

Because the car was there, and because it was about to have it's MOT (UK annual road worthiness test) I asked him to look at my work. I was pleased that he said it had been done properly. Thanks to the forum and it's generous members, everything he went to look for, he found. He said that most of the conversions he sees don't incorporate the brake balancing valve (my eternal thanks to Joe!); many more don't drill a hole for the bigger breather (on the flat spot by the pumpkin), etc, and so it went. He did pick me up for a brake line routing that I accept was done at the end of a long day, and was pretty poor. He fixed that for me. The cars brakes work very well and she flew through the MOT (once I'd addressed a few separate rear light issues documented in another post).

On collecting the car, I drove her back home, but noticed that she sounded a little 'blowy'. That was when I found the rear exhaust manifold had cracked. I finished replacing that earlier this week, and yesterday, rather nervously, took the car out. I have messed with the linkage a little doing the manifold, because the car is hunting at idle now, but I'll tune it later. However, she runs superbly on the new rear end. The acceleration is less pronounced, but I've gained 10MPH for the same RPM around 60+ and obviously the difference increases significantly after that (I did have a GPS and wrote down the speeds, but have lost the paper. Alfred has documented it perfectly anyway using his graph). On long, steep hills, I can't really use 4th, but that's OK. I did this to make the car cruise better, and it does - much better.

To those who are thinking of doing this, I would say it's worth the hassle. Doing it on a 230 is a lot more work because of the need to change the complete brake system from drums to discs, including the lines and the master cylinder. It would be quite simple on a 250 or 280. The only major emotional drama was breaking the rear exhaust manifold. I stuffed that up but not tightening the bolts correctly to the downpipes. I probably just cranked them up, without doing each one a little at a time. Expensive lesson learned.

Thank you everyone who helped and advised along the way. This place is a great resource. I'm especially grateful to Naj, who has been so helpful off line.

I'm now hoping to be able to just drive the car and enjoy it rather than lie on my back staring at her underside.

Here are a couple of links to specific problems/questions I had along the way, which may help others going down this route (there are a zillion rear axle posts on the forum, and I've read them all. Every one contains useful info, and some of them vast amounts).

This post deals with the assembly order for the rear pivot pin: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=18312.0

This thread deals with the carrier bush, (through which the above said pin goes), should anyone wish to try to remove it: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=12903.25

This shows the compensating valve/balancing valve that is needed when converting drums to discs: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=18261.0

This post also talks about converting drums to discs: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=10947.0

I found this to be a really useful thread (not mine): http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=1195.150

James Howard
1966 LHD 230SL

Peter van Es

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Re: Axle swap 4.08 to 3,46 - drums to discs
« Reply #48 on: November 01, 2013, 11:09:08 »
Now all you need to do is:

  • get a Full membership to get access rights to write in the Wiki, Technical Manual
  • and with your newfound knowledge and summary write it up as a single, coherent piece in said Technical Manual

Many would then be eternally grateful to you!
1970 280SL. System Admin of the site. Please do not mail or PM me questions on Pagoda's... I'm not likely to know the answer.  Please post on the forum instead!

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Re: Axle swap 4.08 to 3,46 - drums to discs
« Reply #49 on: November 01, 2013, 20:39:41 »
I would be eternally grateful, there are a lot of posts there that James should be adding into the Tech manual for others to access, and be grateful to him for doing so :o
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