Author Topic: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project  (Read 241170 times)

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #225 on: January 12, 2015, 10:05:53 »
You were so excited! Like a little boy on Christmas!

Indeed! The car even had a Christmas bow attached to the grill!

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #226 on: January 12, 2015, 10:12:56 »
Sway Bar - what diameter is the sway bar from the W108 4.5?

Does it bolt right up as replacement for the regular w113 bar?

Great job - nice.

Thanks!

If I remember well the diameter of the W108 4.5 sway bar is 23mm. The biggest one is the W109 3.5 one which I believe is 24mm. But it is a bit harder to find.

I did not install it yet but other on this forum did and they had to grind a bit of the lips used for the spot welds at the bottom of the chassis rails for clearance. This is because the shape is not exactly the same as the Pagoda sway bars. Apart from that I think it's a straight fit.

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #227 on: March 26, 2015, 12:15:45 »
Since I fitted the bigger brakes I went with 15" wheels to clear the calipers. I sourced some 15" hubcaps in Finland through an M-100 Enthusiast which I stripped from their paint as they had been all covered in blue, including the areas that are supposed to stay shiny. But I was still to have them painted the same color as the car. So yesterday I took the hubcaps to a renown body shop in the area. Working there was a gentleman who took great interest in the Pagoda and the conversion I did. It turns out this gentleman is a MB fan and is also an instructor at the Summit Point race track near Winchester in Virginia. So he is quite knowledgeable about setting up cars. I asked him if he would test drive the Pagoda and come with recommendations to help me improve the chassis settings. So we went for a drive and I was quite happy with his comments.

The good: The car is extremely well balanced. He told me people strive to get such a nice balance so I should really think twice before fitting a stiffer sway bar in the front as this may induce more under-steer and alter the nice balance of the car. He also told me the front geometry is set up quite nicely as the car is engaging very nicely and easily into corners. He liked the brakes a lot, telling me they were powerful and progressive, with a very nice bite. Finally, he told me my 215/60-15 tires had the right profile to do what the car is supposed to do. Oh, and he also liked the buckets of torque available anytime, no matter the rpm. He really liked the car a lot!

The not so good: The shocks are clearly inadequate. He was happy to hear I had ordered adjustable Konis. He told me I may be able to sort out the body roll issue to some extent through adjusting the new shocks when I fit them. He recommended to go one change at a time to keep track of improvements. First the shocks, and then see if a stiffer sway bar is still needed. He was also happy to hear that polyurethane bushings were on order for the front axle and sway bar, as this would have the car even more precise than it is now.

So, next thing on the to do list is to replace the shocks and front axle/sway bar bushings when I receive them, and fiddle with the shock adjustments until I'm happy. I have ordered poly bushings for 20 and 23 mm sway bars so that I can swap the two sway bars I have and compare the results.  Hopefully all this will be done by the MBCA event at Summit Point where I will have this helpful gentleman drive the car again, on the track this time, to help me finalize the chassis settings. Another nice day in perspective!


   
 
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 19:31:55 by GGR »

stickandrudderman

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #228 on: March 26, 2015, 17:57:37 »
Sounds like great fun. he's right to caution you that you should only make one change at a time so you can monitor the effects accurately.
I once drove my race car around the streets here in west London (when nobody was looking); it was the most uncomfortable ride! The compromise between track handling and street handling is a delicate one.

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #229 on: March 26, 2015, 20:01:42 »
I once drove my race car around the streets here in west London (when nobody was looking); it was the most uncomfortable ride! The compromise between track handling and street handling is a delicate one.

Yes. Though I had a lot of fun during the track day, one of the take aways of that day is that the car is definitely a road car, not a track car. A lot could be done to it to improve its performance on the track, but this would make it unpractical and uncomfortable on the road. The chassis is still set up for road use, with occasional fun on a track, not the contrary. As is, the suspension is much firmer than original, but still acceptable for a GT oriented road car. It is a compromise still biased towards road use. I am now proceeding by little steps, the objective being more to improve the car's homogeneity rather than overall performance.

Regarding polyurethane bushings: I initially had rubber bushing all round. But engine torque was clearly over powering the trailing arms bushings with a result of the rear end shifting left and right under strong acceleration. This was sorted with the use of polyurethane bushings with no ill effect on comfort. I think I may feel more of a difference when I replace the bushings in front of the front axle (connection with the front leafs), but I have them on the Coupe already and it is still very acceptable.

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #230 on: May 09, 2015, 22:24:21 »
The other day I got my hubcaps for 15" wheels back from the paint shop. The result is very nice. I will post pictures once I've cleaned the car. I was not sure how these would look on the Pagoda, I was concerned they would look too big. But they look just fine. If one is not a Pagoda specialist (s)he won't notice the difference.

I have fitted back the plate under the trans. Till now I had the bracket made by Mark Turnbull to fit the Getrag. But having a stiffer suspension, I felt like fitting back the original plate for more rigidity. I have come with a different system to hold the transmission. I now can tell the difference: before the hardtop was doing all kind of noises when driving on degraded surfaces. Not anymore. This is on a low mileage Texas rust free car, so body stiffness is as close as original as it can be and creaking was not due to rigidity being compromised by rust and metal fatigue. I am now convinced that this plate is there for a reason.

I also fitted the polyurethane bushings for the front axle leafs and sway bar. The car is quite tighter and more precise on the road, and comfort is not that altered. I'm very happy with the result. I kept the original sway bar for now so as not to alter the car's nice balance, and the polyurethane bushings have taken care of some of the leaning in the corners.

I still did not receive the adjustable Konis as the front pair is on back order. They will be the last touch to the chassis set-up.

 
« Last Edit: May 10, 2015, 10:26:32 by GGR »

Garry

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #231 on: May 09, 2015, 22:48:15 »
I totally agree, when I took the plate off my 280 and fitted Mark’s plate with the Getrag gearbox the car had a fair bit of additional creaking and flex.

Garry
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stickandrudderman

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #232 on: May 11, 2015, 16:54:19 »
One of the modifications I have been working with Mark on is the stiffening of the cradle.

mkbull

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #233 on: May 22, 2015, 15:59:35 »
Working with Colin I have now beefed up the design of the Cross member.

Notwithstanding that I see no reason to change it on my own car. I still stand by the fact that the original support plate is overkill.
I do significant work on many classics of that era including db5s and db6s and the convertible versions of these cars have nothing like the structural integrity/rigidity of the pagoda shell.
The gearbox tunnels on some of these cars is a removable/bolt in item and the cross member is no more than a piece of angle iron. The pagoda on the other hand was massively engineered with 3mm plate for the tunnel and everything including the immense rocker panels and floor seat boxes are welded construction.

On the other hand, it is not a big exercise to slightly re-fashion the existing plate and re-fit it after the conversion if owners prefer.

Mark



GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #234 on: May 22, 2015, 16:16:08 »

I still stand by the fact that the original support plate is overkill.


Well, I really felt (or heard rather) the difference, not really dynamically, but by the fact the hard top is not creaking anymore on degraded surfaces. That said, my car is not stock, my front springs are much stiffer as well as the 4 shocks. So I guess the shell is a bit more stressed. Also the V8 being shorter, the transmission is about 2 inches forward and clears the plate, so I had it easier than on a 6cyl Pagoda.

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #235 on: June 06, 2015, 06:46:10 »
I just received a new set of adjustable Konis: 80-1415 for the front, and 80-1416 for the back.

I wonder what is the best adjustment on a Pagoda? I saw this older thread started by Jim Villers here: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=3702.0 but he doesn't mention what is the adjustment setting he used in the end. Anybody with some experience with this?

Thanks!

« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 07:49:52 by GGR »

stickandrudderman

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #236 on: June 06, 2015, 11:02:43 »
I would start at full soft and then drive the car. Then go full hard and drive the car again, preferably over the same piece of road and that should have some bumpy corners in it. Once you know what the extremes feel like you can try to find your happy medium by adjustingone click and drive. Take a notepad to record your results.

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #237 on: June 06, 2015, 12:11:56 »
The thing is that one needs to take these shocks out each time they need adjusting. So I was hopping to start with a proven good setting on a Pagoda and go from there.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 19:39:06 by GGR »

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #238 on: June 22, 2015, 19:46:05 »
I installed the Konis today. Having stiffer springs in the front I set the front shocks at 540 degrees (out of 720). my rear springs are stock so I initially set the rear shock at 360 degrees. After a test drive the fronts were fine but the rear ones were a bit too soft (too much brake diving). So I set them at 540 degrees too and now I'm quite happy with the result. I shall drive the car around and see if it needs further fine tuning. 
« Last Edit: June 23, 2015, 07:24:32 by GGR »

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #239 on: June 26, 2015, 23:23:48 »
So here are a few pictures with the 15" hubcaps in place:


GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #240 on: June 27, 2015, 01:08:46 »
I forgot to mention: I really like the Konis. I have the Bilsteins on my Coupe and I really prefer the Konis. They are softer on compression so they let the springs do their absorption job better, and the drive is smoother. They are firmer on rebound so they also control car movement very well. It's a great concept.

stickandrudderman

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #241 on: June 27, 2015, 16:41:16 »
If the rebound is slower than compression you can end up with "jacking", where the shock becomes compressed.

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #242 on: June 27, 2015, 21:48:18 »
Well, given that these Konis are way stiffer or rebound, the latter may be quite slower than compression. I don't think they should be equal, only rebound should have fully happened before the next compression. I drove the car on very degraded surfaces and the car didn't get lower, and the suspension did not bottom down or anything like that. So I think I'm OK. From what I read, as a general rule, stiffer springs should be fitted with stiffer shocks, as it takes more strength to dampen the oscillation of a stronger spring. This is why I went with the adjustable Konis  as the Bilsteins are good for stock springs, but may have been over powered by my front stiffer springs. 

I wonder if there is a way to find the ideal shock stiffness adjustment for a given spring on a bench, or on any kind of testing device they may have in a performance shop.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2015, 21:01:11 by GGR »

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #243 on: July 01, 2015, 02:45:18 »
I had a nice round trip to Lancaster PA today, to collect a part for another project I started. The trip was a mix of Interstate and State Roads. The car was a pleasure to drive. The polyurethane bushings in the front made it more precise, and the shocks seem to be adjusted at the right stiffness. The car is balanced, easy to drive and quite relaxing at highway speed. Quite a nice GT.

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #244 on: July 24, 2015, 01:33:16 »
I just spent two weeks with my wife and friends visiting from Europe in Southern California, Arizona, Nevada and Utah. Due to time constraints I couldn't drive there with the Pagoda so we flew and rented a car. We had a wonderful time in one of the most beautiful part of the planet. But I was surely missing something. I built my Coupe and my Pagoda for that kind of trips and I did many such with them. This is the first time I do one without one of them since I built them and I feel the experience was not complete, as several times I caught myself thinking how nice it would have been to drive the Pagoda or the Coupe in the wonderful landscapes we were going through. I guess I developed some kind of addiction. In the same way I have difficulties enjoying good cheese without a nice glass of red wine, I'm now missing something driving across beautiful places if it's not in one one of my cars.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2015, 02:13:46 by GGR »

kampala

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #245 on: July 24, 2015, 10:50:02 »
In the same way I have difficulties enjoying good cheese without a nice glass of red wine, I'm now missing something driving across beautiful places if it's not in one one of my cars.

Perfectly stated.  Many of us have this addiction.    Nice photos (now just photoshop a coupe in them) :D
250sl - later - manual
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Aslam

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #246 on: July 24, 2015, 13:18:55 »
Perfectly stated.  Many of us have this addiction.    Nice photos (now just photoshop a coupe in them) :D

Thanks. But these pictures are out of the net just to illustrate my post. My friend was the photographer in chief and I didn't get the CD yet. Will post some when I do.

stickandrudderman

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #247 on: July 24, 2015, 15:03:36 »
I used to sail yachts a lot but then I took up flying.
It's funny how you can be on a yacht and look up at a light aircraft and wish you were up there, then be on a light aircraft looking down at a yacht wishing you were down there!
If only flying boats were a viable proposition!

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #248 on: July 24, 2015, 15:22:32 »
Stick, here is your next restoration project:


GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #249 on: July 29, 2015, 02:35:41 »
Here is a listing for Karl Middelhauve's '66 300SE Cabrio converted to M100 6.3 power and ZF 5 speed manual transmission by AMG: 

http://www.copleymotorcars.com/?showroom=1967-mercedes-benz-300se-amg-cabriolet

Asking price was $395,000. That would value the conversion at a whooping $235,000, given that Hagerty values a stock condition 1 W112 cabrio at $160,000. Of course the asking price may not necessarily be the selling price, but still.

This car had me dream quite a lot some years ago, when I had my 6.3. I always regretted MB never did it in the form of a Coupe or a Cabrio. And the manual transmission was just the icing on the cake. However, I've always been a bit uncomfortable with the W111 Cabrio, especially with the top down. I think it just looks like a big barge, when the Coupe is so elegant. Then I realized I could have a Coupe AND a Pagoda for the price of a W111 Cabrio. So that's the way I went.

I then moved away from the M100 motor because of its weight. I ended up doing my conversions with aluminum block M117s, 5.0L on my Coupe and 5.6L on the Pagoda, both fitted with manual transmissions. Not heavier than the original 6 cylinder engine, so the balance of the car is preserved.

I am posting this car here because it has been part of the dreams that ended up shaping my Pagoda the way it is today:
« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 08:43:52 by GGR »